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Old 08-22-2019, 11:44 PM   #1
Lord Windmark
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Default The Amazon is Burning

This makes me so sad, I cannot even watch the reports on the news networks...true that this has not just become an issue now as its been going on for years but President Bolsonaros reaction is medieval and absolutely disgraceful.

Brazil is its own independant country with a right to govern themselves and maintain whatever laws their people support. However when 20% of the worlds trees lie within its border and they want to cut them all down is it a the duty of the wider world to "make " Brazil change its disgusting behaviour and culture towards the Amazon? It has been their for millions of years after all...before most modern day "Brazilians" even got to the South American Continent....the world really was fucked by colonialism.

For example in my own country which is very very small (Ireland)...It was covered in 98% woodland up until 300-400 years ago, and the British cut down all our forests to build ships to conquer the world. The Colonial Powers ruined the world a long time ago and now we are suffering the consequences of terrible mindsets. Yes that you Spanish, Portuguese, Belgian, Dutch, and French too!

I would be in favour of heavy sanctions against Brazil and Bolivia and any other country that doesnt protect resources that keep the world alive. This includes The United States for not taking climate change seriously.
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Old 08-23-2019, 12:27 AM   #2
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Default Re: The Amazon is Burning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Windmark View Post
This makes me so sad, I cannot even watch the reports on the news networks...true that this has not just become an issue now as its been going on for years but President Bolsonaros reaction is medieval and absolutely disgraceful.
The truth of the matter is a bit more of a grey area, unfortunately. Until yesterday most of the pictures/videos were from years past and purposefully used to conflate the situation by would be ne'er-do-wells.

Unfortunately as this comes more and more to light it degrades the situation directly against the cause those people wanting to shine a light on.

Is the Amazon on fire, yes. Every July & August the Amazon has a massive burn off averaging 50 thousand separate fires each year over the last decade. Like any statistic this number includes everything from large multi-kilometer blazes to small quarter acre purposeful back burns.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Windmark View Post
I would be in favour of heavy sanctions against Brazil and Bolivia and any other country that doesnt protect resources that keep the world alive. This includes The United States for not taking climate change seriously.
This is a pretty dangerous statement. In your opinion who is allowed to decide the resources that need protecting and at which point they can decide to adjudicate the sovereignty of another country for not protecting them?
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Old 08-23-2019, 12:37 AM   #3
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Default Re: The Amazon is Burning

Sanction us if you want a recession! Seriously, the non-acceptance of climate change by Republicans will burn this planet up if they remain in power.
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Old 08-23-2019, 03:41 AM   #4
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Default Re: The Amazon is Burning

Sanctions may be part of the problem. If US could stop the trade war against China, China could go back to buying soy beans from US rather than switching to Brazil, and decreased demand for Brazilian soy beans may reduce Brazilian motivation for replacing forest with farmland for soy beans. It's not that simple of course - it's complicated.



You could support the Rainforest Alliance and buy products certified by the the Rainforest Alliance.

http://www.rainforest-alliance.org/a...zon-rainforest
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Old 08-23-2019, 05:20 AM   #5
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Default Re: The Amazon is Burning

The forest fires have been close to average this year (in comparison with the past 15 years). So there are no increased fires under Bolsonaro's government. Source: NASA.

Also, the total number of fires was actually higher in the 00s than in the last few years—as the graph below shows:



Source (in Portuguese): National Institute for Space Research. Page: http://queimadas.dgi.inpe.br/queimadas/portal/estatistica_paises

For some reason, mainstream media decided to enter panic mode just recently. These fires have been going on for decades—not just in 2019. Source: I'm also Brazilian.
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Old 08-23-2019, 02:35 PM   #6
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Default Re: The Amazon is Burning

As another Brazilian (living in Brazil):

I'm already in the "fuck it" mode and even ignoring news related to those fires (the brazilian politics is very harmful to anyone's sanity), but it is a fact that they happen every year and have multiple causes, as Alexander Kerensky pointed out. This time, the reason why the incidents are attracting a lot of international attention is the fact that the current administration is basically "against" environmental protection and has been weakening all institutions related to that since the beginning of the year (through budget cuts, administration changes, interference with operations and even making use of fake news to discredit those institutes). What is even worse is the fact that there is a "moral" support from the government to practices like illegal deforestation, logging, gold panning and etc, what stimulates them (for those in the US, that's comparable to Trump's rhetoric, that ends up stimulating racists and xenophobes to leave their wardrobes and start to openly manifest their hate, a thing that is happening here too, but stimulated by Bolsonaro's rethoric). For that reason, this year, we have been experiencing alarming levels of deforestation and related conflicts, if compared to the last couple years (although nothing as worse as what we had during the second half of the last century).

If you couple this situation to protectionist positions within the EU on the EU-Mercosul deal, it is understandable that some governments would take advantage of the situation and make threats (like Ireland, France and Finland did). However, the problem is that things here aren't simple and, by doing that, it can make Bolsonaro "stronger".

Since he assumed the presidency, his popularity has been sinking and, right now, his administration has an approval rate of only ~30% of the population. After his attacks to the independency of some legal institutions in the last weeks (like the Federal Police and our internal revenue service), to interfere with investigations that involve one of his sons (yes, that's not a joke, and he also wants to have another son as ambassador in the US), part of his fierce supporters are also expected reduce their support or abandon him.

However, despite how hated he is, most of the population is, to some degree, nationalist (including me) and, now, under international threats, he will certainly use that in his favor and try to recover part of the support he lost (if it will work or not, is yet to be seen). It is also worth pointing out that one of the things that keep him in the presidency is the support he receives from the military (he was a captain and the vice-president is a retired general). He may be seen as a clown, a complete asshole, by most of the higher ranks, but is extremely popular among the lower ranks. Now, under foreign pressure, the generals who started stepping away will have to support him again and, if he manages to keep full military support, the Congress won't risk taking a stance against him (like an impeachment process).

-------------

Ah! Regarding the "disgusting behaviour and culture towards the Amazon", it is wiser to avoid generalization. The current situation is only supported by the current government and part of the agricultural business. The majority of the population don't support that.

-------------

Now, regarding sanctions, that's one of the dumbest things ever invented, and North Korea and Venezuela are a proof of that. Only the population suffer, while the sanctioned government keep its power.
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Old 08-23-2019, 06:07 PM   #7
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Default Re: The Amazon is Burning

To those interested, these are some of the official tools, maintained by the government, to monitor fires and deforestation in Brazil. They are interactive maps and give a better idea of where and when the deforestation and fires happen/happened in the country.
http://queimadas.dgi.inpe.br/queimadas/aq1km/
http://terrabrasilis.dpi.inpe.br/app...ation?hl=pt-br (this one can be seen in english)
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Old 08-23-2019, 10:40 PM   #8
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Default Re: The Amazon is Burning

So This morning Bolsonaro is promising military action from pressure from world leaders. I hope that this issue does not just go away and the International Pressure is ramped up even further to stop the logging completely.
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Old 08-24-2019, 12:37 AM   #9
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Default Re: The Amazon is Burning

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Originally Posted by Lord Windmark View Post
So This morning Bolsonaro is promising military action from pressure from world leaders. I hope that this issue does not just go away and the International Pressure is ramped up even further to stop the logging completely.
There was no need to use the army and it will probably become another huge waste of money. During the last couple years, the agencies under the Ministry of Environment did their job and managed to - to some extent - reduce the deforestation rates (stop it is absolutely impossible). That, alongside with the economic pressure from foreign markets, kept the numbers bellow the level we have this year. He could have just given proper funds to those agencies to do their job and contract more personal.

Unfortunately, today's move was aimed to: 1. power demonstration (to the "international community", to the population and to the military branches, that probably pressured him); 2. to respond to pressure from economic segments that demanded an action (like the agribusiness itself); and 3. to possibly to inflate his nationalist rhetoric. The military involvement is expected to last for a month and it will be very limited, relying on initiatives from local governments to do anything.

If you want to have an idea of what that represents, the last time the military was employed to deal with civilian matters was last year, from february to december 31, in Rio de Janeiro. They took over the public security here, did multiple spectacular operations, spent millions and millions and, in the end, achieved absolutely nothing relevant. The crime rates are still high, the drug traffic is still doing well and the "militias" are still doing well. Everything served more as a media spectacle than anything else.
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Old 08-24-2019, 05:50 AM   #10
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Default Re: The Amazon is Burning

Hi There!!

If you Read The Kyoto Protocol it contains No provision for Carbon Credits for planting trees.

I guess somebody told them about Arbor Day which is a White Man Idea

Arbor Day sprouted from the mind of a zealous tree lover named Julius Sterling Morton, who had a passion for planting all kinds of trees. The first Arbor Day occurred on April 10, 1872, in Nebraska City, Nebraska.

The Full text shows that Fuck-Up the United States Economy was the Main Agenda for the Treaty

This is why Trump pulled out of the Climate Change Deal

Here are the Facts

Note that the USA is the Nation most in Compliance to a Treaty it backed out of

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