Torch of the Beijing XXIX Olympiad

[Imperial]

One thing I do have to say, I like the music

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pSSQbn-iRU&feature=related[/media]

[Melidan]

I prefer this one.. http://youtube.com/watch?v=AGJoaHr2QdM
(warning graphic)

The fact that the Olympics are going to take place in China is almost as laughable as giving the nobel peace prize to Yaser Arafat. The Chicom govt can burn in hell for eternity.

(No offense directed at you bud, I just really dislike China)

[Imperial]

Well Melidan, I think you shouldn't judge the whole country by the actions of the government. The US abducts foreign citizens, tortures them, then says "oops, we made a mistake" and pretends that it never happens. We're also the country that went into the Middle East and destabilized the region killing over 80,000 Iraqis, that doesn't really compare to China's human rights. So comparably, the US would have no right to hold any Olympiad given our own government.

And with the whole commies thing, Communism is simply an idea. I find it laughable that the US went on witch hunts for Communists simply because they believed in an idea. Ironic being the US is a country founded on ideas.

[Franklin]

I liked the music and images, very cool bit of propaganda they have there. ^_^

[The Corporal]

Originally Posted by Imperial

Well Melidan, I think you shouldn't judge the whole country by the actions of the government. The US abducts foreign citizens, tortures them, then says "oops, we made a mistake" and pretends that it never happens. We're also the country that went into the Middle East and destabilized the region killing over 80,000 Iraqis, that doesn't really compare to China's human rights. So comparably, the US would have no right to hold any Olympiad given our own government.

And with the whole commies thing, Communism is simply an idea. I find it laughable that the US went on witch hunts for Communists simply because they believed in an idea. Ironic being the US is a country founded on ideas.

Imperial, I like you. Keep that in mind when I say the following:

I had no idea it was the U.S. organizing all those suicide bombings that accounted for the vast majority of those deaths. I also had no idea that the people we call "terrorists" in that country are totally innocent when it comes to murdering civilians. Lastly, I had no idea that the violence and destabilization of Iraq wasn't caused by a centuries-old religious schism far nastier than that between Catholics and Protestants. Thank you for clearing that up while the Chinese government is indiscriminately murdering peaceful protesters in Tibet.

[Zagato]

I think we should just accept that the games are held there.
All these hatred towards China isn't fair. Sure, its government did terrible things in the past, but it was the past. I mean, even Canada did a few bad things in the past, but no one's throwing any anger at us.

Quite an interesting video. Don't see how it can be propaganda though. Other countries would display such a proud feeling to host the games as well.

[Imperial]

Originally Posted by The Corporal

Imperial, I like you. Keep that in mind when I say the following:

I had no idea it was the U.S. organizing all those suicide bombings that accounted for the vast majority of those deaths. I also had no idea that the people we call "terrorists" in that country are totally innocent when it comes to murdering civilians. Lastly, I had no idea that the violence and destabilization of Iraq wasn't caused by a centuries-old religious schism far nastier than that between Catholics and Protestants. Thank you for clearing that up while the Chinese government is indiscriminately murdering peaceful protesters in Tibet.

I know Corporal, I know. I'm pointing out the fact that we overthrew a sovereign government by ourselves. We stuck it to the UN, majority of our allies and did it anyways. I'm aware of the religious break in Islam between the Sunni & Shia, but under Saddam that was highly controlled. Through force yes, but the whole country wasn't up in arms. Do I think Saddam should have remained in power? Of course not, but we went and opened Pandora's Box & that imo was the worst possible thing to do, by ourselves.

We in Cybernations should see that, you need the support of your allies. Even the superpower hegemony United States can't continue an indefinite war without serious repercussions. There are so many problems here at home to focus on. When the state of California (my state damnit!) is facing serious budget issues, but we spend a billion a week in Iraq, we have a problem. I'm not a Democrat, but all this money could have been put to such better use!

[The Corporal]

Originally Posted by Imperial

I know Corporal, I know. I'm pointing out the fact that we overthrew a sovereign government by ourselves. We stuck it to the UN, majority of our allies and did it anyways. I'm aware of the religious break in Islam between the Sunni & Shia, but under Saddam that was highly controlled. Through force yes, but the whole country wasn't up in arms. Do I think Saddam should have remained in power? Of course not, but we went and opened Pandora's Box & that imo was the worst possible thing to do, by ourselves.

We had a really interesting discussion about just this thing last spring in a technical writing/business ethics class. In our section on psychological profiling (MBTI tests, sociopathy in the workplace, etc.) we discussed "levels" of behavior:

Stage 1, obedience, is like the relationship between parents and very young children. Stage 2, bartering, is like that between parents and older children. Stage 3, tribalism, is where people polarize into groups and denounce other groups as evil (or something like that). Stage 4, control state, is like your run-of-the-mill dictatorship (Saddam, Hitler, you name it) - there is security in the state, but few civil rights. Stage 5, "democracy" (the wrong word, but I can't remember the original), is where there is security and civil rights, but people are still eventually subordinate in some fashion to the government. Stage 6, universal principles, is where every living thing (sentient or not) has totally unalienable rights, no matter what (a level of sophistication probably only achieved by people like Jesus and Buddha).

That big-ass paragraph sets up the following (which has also turned into a big-ass paragraph ): under Saddam, Iraq was a Stage 4 society. By removing him and destroying the Iraqi government (the Ba'ath Party), the country naturally reverted to a Stage 3 society - Sunni vs. Shi'a sectarianism. We currently are trying to force Iraq to move to a Stage 5 society (like in the U.S., Japan, Europe, etc.) without going back through Stage 4. Had we replaced Saddam with a puppet who would have slowly removed institutions like secret police and who would have made gradual changes to the system of government (over even as little as a four or five year period), we wouldn't have to deal with most of the problems we're faced with there today.

That class, while not really improving my writing skills (as they were good to begin with), was highly interesting. You should have seen our unit on domestic spying....

[Zagato]

Originally Posted by The Corporal

Had we replaced Saddam with a puppet who would have slowly removed institutions like secret police and who would have made gradual changes to the system of government (over even as little as a four or five year period), we wouldn't have to deal with most of the problems we're faced with there today.

I don't know, that sounds a lot like Operation Ajax. Clearly, the result of that coup d'état ended with radicals in power.

[Imperial]

Its nice to think that the real world can be easily defined into clean cut theories with categories where every nation fits. But you cannot apply the mold to every country. Nations can skip phases of any kind of theory because they are dynamic entities, not held to the constraints. And while your class seems interesting, it is hard to apply that example of qualitative psychology to international relations and expect it to be clean cut.