Universal Healthcare

[Feibelman]

Originally Posted by Toraoji

And Feibs, we're already at the back of the line, most citizens just don't realize it. At least this way we'll at least get equal access.

Equal access?? It shouldn't be equal access. This is America. American citizens should come first. You should choose your insurance, pay your premium, and if god forbid something happens, you'll be covered for whatever procedure is best (despite the cost). Illegal immigrants shouldn't have any free coverage at all. Poor AMERICAN citizens have Medicaid.

[Imperial]

Originally Posted by Feibelman

Universal Health care would not work in America. Saying that ''Australia and Canada have it so why can't we?'' is a horrible analogy. Neither of these countries are supporting 20+ million illegal immigrants, plus another 30 who don't have Health care now. So, in short, the Government is going to dump 50 million people into the health care system. How are they going to do this? Well, if an 70 year old woman needs eye surgery, the Government can say, ''you're not getting eye surgery, you're getting these pills, because it's cheaper for us.'' The Government will in essence provide the cheapest and poorest quality care because it has to cover 50 million people for free. Almost every single program the Government has ever tried to run has failed. Except the highway system. But that's it. The Government needs to stay out of the lives of it's citizens, biut thats a rant for another day. Thank god this will never pass.

Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act requires any hospital to provide emergency services to any person regardless of their ability to pay or status in the country. When citizens or illegals cannot pay the bill, municipalities and states eat the cost of services. We already pay for "universal" emergency coverage and that doesn't seem to be changing anytime soon. <- This can also be linked to hospital overloads and overuse of emergency services. People who can't afford a doctor's visit use the emergency room instead because they cannot be turned away and we (as taxpayers) provide them services. If we are going to pay for them anyways, I'd at least rather see a smarter use of money to lower costs over time.

[Feibelman]

American citizens would be at the end of a long, long line. Jose and Sancho from Guatemala would be the first two in line.

[tom the pit leader]

we don't have enough RW debate anymore.

mel

but I'm for universal care, but I'm too tired right now to say much more than that.

Also, the universal care won't mean people can't pay for more care, it means that everyone get's a baseline level of care. Knock yourself out if you end up needing/wanting more and have the money to pay for it.

[Sinatra]

I'm not really sure whether, as an Englishman, I am at liberty to talk on this matter, but I'd like to mention a few points on the basis about universal healthcare here in the UK.

The British Government over 60 years ago made the commitment to look after each and every one of it's citizens from the "cradle to the grave" regardless of wealth, gender or race. I frankly believe in rich western countries in the moral age we live in, that no country can morally allow members of it's population to suffer from illness and not be able to afford treatment, or force them to financialyl cripple themselves in the pursuit of health.

The NHS consumes around 8-11% of GDP depending on which figures you look at, which is frankly enormous, however health is among the most important expenditures any country can justify. We have high taxation to justify the NHS, however if we can manage to afford it, then I'm in no doubt the richest country in the world can do so to.

I find it humbling that I can walk into any Hospital in the country and get free, no questions asked health care. Whether I need to be stitched up or want to have a chat with my GP, or whether I need a major organ transplant costing hundreds of thousands of pounds, apart from asking where I live, no one will deny me treatment, nor will I have to fill out endless insurance claims.

Now the NHS is by no means perfect, it operates within tight budgetary constraints, lack of choice and waiting lists and so on, however it still offers world class health care for free (beyond nation insurance contributions taken from taxes). And if you are of the wealthier class, you can always opt for a private insurance policy should you so desire. However you will find, many wealthy people have much faith in the NHS and won’t take out private cover.

The French healthcare system is widely regarded as the best in the world, according the World Health Organisation and they operate a relatively universal health care programme.

For me, I just cannot understand why people would want healthcare in the hands of the private sector. Private companies are there to make money, the state is there to serve the people. I know which I would trust. I understand the U.S' love for the free market and mistrust of any state intervention, but the fact is you pay your taxes and you want as much as you can get for your money. You trust the government with your defence and security, so why not your health?

Universal health care is expensive, it causes arguments and at times it may grant limitations in what it can provide. But the knowledge that myself and all my family will get the best health the country can provide no matter what financial situation they are in, is extremely comforting to me, and I for one am proud that the UK has the balls to put its neck on the line, open itself up to criticism and grant healthcare for all.

You will always hear British people talking and debating out the NHS, the reason for that is because it is so very important to us, and something we all feel strongly about.

Applications the US are far different I know. But that is just a brief summation of how Universal healthcare works for us, and my feelings on the moral necessity of healthcare.

[bigdaddychacha]

Originally Posted by Lord Fingolfin

Bottom line I feel that the government running anything is just going to fail miserably

Yah, regular trash collection, the US Postal Service, the Interstate Highway System...those bureaucratic n00bs in Washington can't be trusted to do anything right!!!11!

C'mon, that knee-jerk anti-government stuff is sooo easy

-The current health care system is a complete failure for millions of Americans. Saying that "we can't trust the government," is that supposed to mean that we are supposed to just sit back and enjoy the status quo, or trust the health insurance companies who want to deny claims and maximize copays and say that anybody with a preexisting condition might as well blow their brains out all to help their BUSINESS's bottom line or drug companies who claim to want to help give life-saving drugs to people who need them but then spend billions of dollars in legal wars to keep generic versions of their drugs from hitting the market after their patents expire, thereby denying low-cost versions of those same life-saving drugs to people who need them? (okay, longest run on sentence ever!)

-Government health care has a proven better track record in other countries, but Americans think it'll presage the second coming of Stalin or something if it ever catches on in the USA.

-"Optimal Health Care for all Americans" and "Maximum Profits for Drug/Inurance Companies/Doctors/etc. as best achieved in the Free Market Competition Model" are not complimentary goals, and in fact they are to quite a degree mutually exclusive. The Free Market cannot solve every problem through it's own natural self-corrections, as we're rapidly learning in the financial sector, and the health care INDUSTRY is another one of those examples where it can't/won't.

[Lord Fingolfin]

Originally Posted by bigdaddychacha

Yah, regular trash collection, the US Postal Service, the Interstate Highway System...those bureaucratic n00bs in Washington can't be trusted to do anything right!!!11!

C'mon, that knee-jerk anti-government stuff is sooo easy

-The current health care system is a complete failure for millions of Americans. Saying that "we can't trust the government," is that supposed to mean that we are supposed to just sit back and enjoy the status quo, or trust the health insurance companies who want to deny claims and maximize copays and say that anybody with a preexisting condition might as well blow their brains out all to help their BUSINESS's bottom line or drug companies who claim to want to help give life-saving drugs to people who need them but then spend billions of dollars in legal wars to keep generic versions of their drugs from hitting the market after their patents expire, thereby denying low-cost versions of those same life-saving drugs to people who need them? (okay, longest run on sentence ever!)

-Government health care has a proven better track record in other countries, but Americans think it'll presage the second coming of Stalin or something if it ever catches on in the USA.

-"Optimal Health Care for all Americans" and "Maximum Profits for Drug/Inurance Companies/Doctors/etc. as best achieved in the Free Market Competition Model" are not complimentary goals, and in fact they are to quite a degree mutually exclusive. The Free Market cannot solve every problem through it's own natural self-corrections, as we're rapidly learning in the financial sector, and the health care INDUSTRY is another one of those examples where it can't/won't.

The United States Postal Service is currently 7 billion dollars in debt and just had to go to Congress to get more money. UPS and FedEX (private) = Good Profit Making companies, USPS (government) = Inefficient wasteful company. And the highway system is going to shit now, half of it is falling apart, so much for the stimulus fixing all the infrastructure XD. Well certainly there are points on both sides, glad to see I stimulated such a good debate

[Jonathan Xenex]

Originally Posted by The Arbiter

We have one of the best healthcare systems in the world and that's why France and Britain are moving away from universal healthcare. But of course the media won't let you hear that because they're Obama-worshipping commie whores. Cuba has a fucking awful healthcare system, any Cuban can attest to that. They ration healthcare and the waiting list is fucking huge. I doubt we have the highest infant mortality rate, that makes no sense considering we deliver in hospitals. Obesity is a problem, yes. Stupidity? Yes, a lot of stupid Americans are blindly following the press and becoming dirty liberals.

Trust me I watch less of main stream media. I actually do what thousands have been doing for centuries.... its one of the most secretive practices ever conceived... its called..... prepare to be mind fr00kd.. reading.....

But a little food for thought, my friend.

"Cuba's infant mortality rate is lower than the US with 5 deaths per thousand in Cuba versus 7 per thousand in the US. Cuba has nearly twice as many physicians as the U.S. -- 5.91 doctors per thousand people compared to 2.56 doctors per thousand, according to WHO.
A principal reason that some health standards in Cuba approach the high American level is that the Cuban system emphasizes early intervention. Clinic visits are free, and the focus is on preventing disease rather than treating it."


I never said the backbone of our medical care itself was in question. At the end of all of this college work ill have a lovely little degree in Nuclear Medicine and something along the lines of oncology.. haven't decided yet, but im learning from one of the best and leading colleges for my degree, and im having the benefit of learning on some of the best technology and procedures on the face of the planet when it comes to fighting cancers... but none of that matters really if we cant get it to the right people in a decent and cheap manner.

Technology wise, we do lead, but the quality that seems to vary (sometimes due to funds), and the availability in which its offered, hurts those numbers.

The number isnt a gigantic gap, but its still enough to make you blink, that a once considered third world country as Cuba, has a BETTER infant mortality rate than us.

And really again, I just dont think the money is going to be available for a uni health care system... how the hell will it be payed for? and whos going to pay for it? obviously the tax payers, but we're hurting as it is...

[bigdaddychacha]

Originally Posted by Lord Fingolfin

The United States Postal Service is currently 7 billion dollars in debt and just had to go to Congress to get more money. UPS and FedEX (private) = Good Profit Making companies, USPS (government) = Inefficient wasteful company. And the highway system is going to shit now, half of it is falling apart, so much for the stimulus fixing all the infrastructure XD. Well certainly there are points on both sides, glad to see I stimulated such a good debate

All I know is that every time I put a piece of mail in the box, it get's where it needs to go, invariably. I've been in Korea for 2 years, and even shipping internationally and writing addresses in other languages and stuff, it still finds its way back to my family and friends. Without living the alternative to this idyllic arrangement, we can't really put a price on the value of that.

Besides, if the USPS needs to be bailed out, that only makes it somewhere near as bad as AIG and all those bastions of private enterprise and rugged individualism that were not actually making any money...AIG never delivered a package for me.

[Imperial]

Having researched pro/con of universal health care, I think we really have to look at the ethical conduct of insurance companies. They are in a paradoxical situation where they are supposed to be concerned with your health, yet at the same time, they are required to generate as much profit as possible for the shareholders. Those two goals are at polar opposites. The less services they authorize for patients, the more money they retain.