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View Poll Results: Do you want Obama's healthcare program to be passed
Yes! 66 40.74%
Fuck No! 52 32.10%
LF 11 6.79%
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Old 08-08-2009, 02:16 PM   #21
Jonathan Xenex
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare

*We have one of the worst healtcare systems in the world.
- Cuba has a better *ucking health care system than us, and they're partially stuck in the 50's still.

*The highest infant mortality rate.
- Most latin american countries have a better one of these.
Highest Obeseity.
- Stupidity, and the media.... dont get me started.

And so on and so on...

Universal care would obviously be the key way to going about this... but its just so impractical I just cant ever see it happening. Things will have to be so radically changed, so many noses are gonna have to be put out of joint, and somewhere along the line, someone rich who enjoys the wine and cheese and his personal leer is going to have to eat the cost...

It's just not gonna happen. We'll be paying for our insurance for a long long time... but all I have to say is that one way or the other, NOONE needs to be allowed to dictate who the hell dies, and who the hell lives any more, based on cost.

My aunt has stage 3 lung cancer, it costs them 16,500 and some odd change, for every chemo therapy treatment, every 4 weeks. They've already gone over the million dollar mark. Luckily her husband makes almost near 7 figures a year to pay for it, and they've been told by oncologists that if that wasnt so, she more than likely would have been dead a long time ago.

Its so wrong on so many levels, and it really needs to make us think as to where we're going, and what we're becoming as a people...
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Old 08-08-2009, 09:53 PM   #22
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare

we don't have enough RW debate anymore.

mel

but I'm for universal care, but I'm too tired right now to say much more than that.

Also, the universal care won't mean people can't pay for more care, it means that everyone get's a baseline level of care. Knock yourself out if you end up needing/wanting more and have the money to pay for it.
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Old 08-08-2009, 10:00 PM   #23
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Xenex View Post
*We have one of the worst healtcare systems in the world.
- Cuba has a better *ucking health care system than us, and they're partially stuck in the 50's still.

*The highest infant mortality rate.
- Most latin american countries have a better one of these.
Highest Obeseity.
- Stupidity, and the media.... dont get me started.
We have one of the best healthcare systems in the world and that's why France and Britain are moving away from universal healthcare. But of course the media won't let you hear that because they're Obama-worshipping commie whores. Cuba has a fucking awful healthcare system, any Cuban can attest to that. They ration healthcare and the waiting list is fucking huge. I doubt we have the highest infant mortality rate, that makes no sense considering we deliver in hospitals. Obesity is a problem, yes. Stupidity? Yes, a lot of stupid Americans are blindly following the press and becoming dirty liberals.
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Old 08-08-2009, 10:08 PM   #24
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Xenex View Post
*We have one of the worst healtcare systems in the world.
- Cuba has a better *ucking health care system than us, and they're partially stuck in the 50's still.

*The highest infant mortality rate.
- Most latin american countries have a better one of these.
Highest Obeseity.
- Stupidity, and the media.... dont get me started.

And so on and so on...

Universal care would obviously be the key way to going about this... but its just so impractical I just cant ever see it happening. Things will have to be so radically changed, so many noses are gonna have to be put out of joint, and somewhere along the line, someone rich who enjoys the wine and cheese and his personal leer is going to have to eat the cost...

It's just not gonna happen. We'll be paying for our insurance for a long long time... but all I have to say is that one way or the other, NOONE needs to be allowed to dictate who the hell dies, and who the hell lives any more, based on cost.

My aunt has stage 3 lung cancer, it costs them 16,500 and some odd change, for every chemo therapy treatment, every 4 weeks. They've already gone over the million dollar mark. Luckily her husband makes almost near 7 figures a year to pay for it, and they've been told by oncologists that if that wasnt so, she more than likely would have been dead a long time ago.

Its so wrong on so many levels, and it really needs to make us think as to where we're going, and what we're becoming as a people...
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Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act requires any hospital to provide emergency services to any person regardless of their ability to pay or status in the country. When citizens or illegals cannot pay the bill, municipalities and states eat the cost of services. We already pay for "universal" emergency coverage and that doesn't seem to be changing anytime soon. <- This can also be linked to hospital overloads and overuse of emergency services. People who can't afford a doctor's visit use the emergency room instead because they cannot be turned away and we (as taxpayers) provide them services. If we are going to pay for them anyways, I'd at least rather see a smarter use of money to lower costs over time.
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Originally Posted by Artho Drakontas View Post
Ehh hate to burst your bubble but the debt is already on the fast track thanks to medicare and it’ll be a whopper a close to 50 trillion dollar whopper in fact. And private health insurance tends to be on the expensive side and no it’s not always easy to get as I said a few years back no insurance company would touch my uncle. And employer based healthcare (which I also have with dental and vision too) is a really bad idea in a global economy when your competition doesn’t also have to provide it.


And private insurance is the pinnacle of success. You don’t think insurance companies regularly deny approval for certain treatments because of the cost? And the government still foots the bill for those uninsured because as Imperial said all they have to do is go to the hospital which are required to provide treatment and here’s the kicker because most people don’t go when they first notice a problem or they don’t get regular checkups which can catch a problem early the bill is often in the tens of thousands of dollars for problems that if they’d been treated early would have cost a fraction of that. Not to mention all those bankruptcies stemming from medical expenses. I think it’s funny though that you think that the highway system is success go see the autobahn and you’ll weep.

Ehh which is better a health insurance bean counter whose looking to turn a profit or an overworked bureaucrat looking to break even no matter how you set it up for the average person there is always going to be someone looking at the bottom line sadly.


I agree it would be great if things worked like that. Sadly they don’t not only does your idea not take into account ballooning costs which if they aren’t reigned in will cripple this country within the next half century but also the fact that insurance companies are businesses and any econ major will tell you the sole purpose of any business is to turn a profit sadly that tends to come at the expense of the patient in this case.
Again I have to say probably the most viable solution would be for the government to provide baseline care “which again as Imperial already stated is the de facto situation already” only by making it official you’ll get more preventive care which should at least be a net wash as far as costs go but you’ll now be able to probably fund it rather than just have it as another sort of debt. Beyond that baseline coverage have the market provide supplemental coverage on a per-individual or per-family basis which should increase competition and keep costs down. And also medicare doesn’t cover all poor Americans just those below the proverty lines so if your lower middle class or just treading slightly above the poverty line you’re sorry out of luck not to mention the program is a beyond massive black hole for money that is simply not sustainable in the long run as is.
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Originally Posted by Toraoji View Post
ah, would be nice to live in that world, but we dont.

Right now the system is fucked. Those 2 guys from Guatemala you mentioned have better health care than 98% of Americans right now.
+1 too all of those

I fully support Universal Healthcare. I agree American citizens should get more than illegals but, Toraoji is right. With Universal Healthcare, at least everyone gets equal access. Yes I am one of those "dirty liberals" as arb says but I've been in through the Bush-era when the press was saying that. The press just kisses up to the president
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Old 08-09-2009, 03:58 AM   #25
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare

I'm not really sure whether, as an Englishman, I am at liberty to talk on this matter, but I'd like to mention a few points on the basis about universal healthcare here in the UK.

The British Government over 60 years ago made the commitment to look after each and every one of it's citizens from the "cradle to the grave" regardless of wealth, gender or race. I frankly believe in rich western countries in the moral age we live in, that no country can morally allow members of it's population to suffer from illness and not be able to afford treatment, or force them to financialyl cripple themselves in the pursuit of health.

The NHS consumes around 8-11% of GDP depending on which figures you look at, which is frankly enormous, however health is among the most important expenditures any country can justify. We have high taxation to justify the NHS, however if we can manage to afford it, then I'm in no doubt the richest country in the world can do so to.

I find it humbling that I can walk into any Hospital in the country and get free, no questions asked health care. Whether I need to be stitched up or want to have a chat with my GP, or whether I need a major organ transplant costing hundreds of thousands of pounds, apart from asking where I live, no one will deny me treatment, nor will I have to fill out endless insurance claims.

Now the NHS is by no means perfect, it operates within tight budgetary constraints, lack of choice and waiting lists and so on, however it still offers world class health care for free (beyond nation insurance contributions taken from taxes). And if you are of the wealthier class, you can always opt for a private insurance policy should you so desire. However you will find, many wealthy people have much faith in the NHS and won’t take out private cover.

The French healthcare system is widely regarded as the best in the world, according the World Health Organisation and they operate a relatively universal health care programme.

For me, I just cannot understand why people would want healthcare in the hands of the private sector. Private companies are there to make money, the state is there to serve the people. I know which I would trust. I understand the U.S' love for the free market and mistrust of any state intervention, but the fact is you pay your taxes and you want as much as you can get for your money. You trust the government with your defence and security, so why not your health?

Universal health care is expensive, it causes arguments and at times it may grant limitations in what it can provide. But the knowledge that myself and all my family will get the best health the country can provide no matter what financial situation they are in, is extremely comforting to me, and I for one am proud that the UK has the balls to put its neck on the line, open itself up to criticism and grant healthcare for all.

You will always hear British people talking and debating out the NHS, the reason for that is because it is so very important to us, and something we all feel strongly about.

Applications the US are far different I know. But that is just a brief summation of how Universal healthcare works for us, and my feelings on the moral necessity of healthcare.
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Old 08-09-2009, 04:26 AM   #26
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare

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Originally Posted by Lord Fingolfin View Post
Bottom line I feel that the government running anything is just going to fail miserably
Yah, regular trash collection, the US Postal Service, the Interstate Highway System...those bureaucratic n00bs in Washington can't be trusted to do anything right!!!11!

C'mon, that knee-jerk anti-government stuff is sooo easy

-The current health care system is a complete failure for millions of Americans. Saying that "we can't trust the government," is that supposed to mean that we are supposed to just sit back and enjoy the status quo, or trust the health insurance companies who want to deny claims and maximize copays and say that anybody with a preexisting condition might as well blow their brains out all to help their BUSINESS's bottom line or drug companies who claim to want to help give life-saving drugs to people who need them but then spend billions of dollars in legal wars to keep generic versions of their drugs from hitting the market after their patents expire, thereby denying low-cost versions of those same life-saving drugs to people who need them? (okay, longest run on sentence ever!)

-Government health care has a proven better track record in other countries, but Americans think it'll presage the second coming of Stalin or something if it ever catches on in the USA.

-"Optimal Health Care for all Americans" and "Maximum Profits for Drug/Inurance Companies/Doctors/etc. as best achieved in the Free Market Competition Model" are not complimentary goals, and in fact they are to quite a degree mutually exclusive. The Free Market cannot solve every problem through it's own natural self-corrections, as we're rapidly learning in the financial sector, and the health care INDUSTRY is another one of those examples where it can't/won't.
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Old 08-09-2009, 06:23 AM   #27
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare

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Originally Posted by bigdaddychacha View Post
Yah, regular trash collection, the US Postal Service, the Interstate Highway System...those bureaucratic n00bs in Washington can't be trusted to do anything right!!!11!

C'mon, that knee-jerk anti-government stuff is sooo easy

-The current health care system is a complete failure for millions of Americans. Saying that "we can't trust the government," is that supposed to mean that we are supposed to just sit back and enjoy the status quo, or trust the health insurance companies who want to deny claims and maximize copays and say that anybody with a preexisting condition might as well blow their brains out all to help their BUSINESS's bottom line or drug companies who claim to want to help give life-saving drugs to people who need them but then spend billions of dollars in legal wars to keep generic versions of their drugs from hitting the market after their patents expire, thereby denying low-cost versions of those same life-saving drugs to people who need them? (okay, longest run on sentence ever!)

-Government health care has a proven better track record in other countries, but Americans think it'll presage the second coming of Stalin or something if it ever catches on in the USA.

-"Optimal Health Care for all Americans" and "Maximum Profits for Drug/Inurance Companies/Doctors/etc. as best achieved in the Free Market Competition Model" are not complimentary goals, and in fact they are to quite a degree mutually exclusive. The Free Market cannot solve every problem through it's own natural self-corrections, as we're rapidly learning in the financial sector, and the health care INDUSTRY is another one of those examples where it can't/won't.


The United States Postal Service is currently 7 billion dollars in debt and just had to go to Congress to get more money. UPS and FedEX (private) = Good Profit Making companies, USPS (government) = Inefficient wasteful company. And the highway system is going to shit now, half of it is falling apart, so much for the stimulus fixing all the infrastructure XD. Well certainly there are points on both sides, glad to see I stimulated such a good debate
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Old 08-09-2009, 06:54 AM   #28
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
We have one of the best healthcare systems in the world and that's why France and Britain are moving away from universal healthcare. But of course the media won't let you hear that because they're Obama-worshipping commie whores. Cuba has a fucking awful healthcare system, any Cuban can attest to that. They ration healthcare and the waiting list is fucking huge. I doubt we have the highest infant mortality rate, that makes no sense considering we deliver in hospitals. Obesity is a problem, yes. Stupidity? Yes, a lot of stupid Americans are blindly following the press and becoming dirty liberals.
Trust me I watch less of main stream media. I actually do what thousands have been doing for centuries.... its one of the most secretive practices ever conceived... its called..... prepare to be mind fr00kd.. reading.....

But a little food for thought, my friend.

"Cuba's infant mortality rate is lower than the US with 5 deaths per thousand in Cuba versus 7 per thousand in the US. Cuba has nearly twice as many physicians as the U.S. -- 5.91 doctors per thousand people compared to 2.56 doctors per thousand, according to WHO.
A principal reason that some health standards in Cuba approach the high American level is that the Cuban system emphasizes early intervention. Clinic visits are free, and the focus is on preventing disease rather than treating it
."


I never said the backbone of our medical care itself was in question. At the end of all of this college work ill have a lovely little degree in Nuclear Medicine and something along the lines of oncology.. haven't decided yet, but im learning from one of the best and leading colleges for my degree, and im having the benefit of learning on some of the best technology and procedures on the face of the planet when it comes to fighting cancers... but none of that matters really if we cant get it to the right people in a decent and cheap manner.

Technology wise, we do lead, but the quality that seems to vary (sometimes due to funds), and the availability in which its offered, hurts those numbers.

The number isnt a gigantic gap, but its still enough to make you blink, that a once considered third world country as Cuba, has a BETTER infant mortality rate than us.

And really again, I just dont think the money is going to be available for a uni health care system... how the hell will it be payed for? and whos going to pay for it? obviously the tax payers, but we're hurting as it is...
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Old 08-09-2009, 08:34 AM   #29
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
We have one of the best healthcare systems in the world and that's why France and Britain are moving away from universal healthcare. But of course the media won't let you hear that because they're Obama-worshipping commie whores. Cuba has a fucking awful healthcare system, any Cuban can attest to that. They ration healthcare and the waiting list is fucking huge. I doubt we have the highest infant mortality rate, that makes no sense considering we deliver in hospitals. Obesity is a problem, yes. Stupidity? Yes, a lot of stupid Americans are blindly following the press and becoming dirty liberals.

Sure its that but socialism never hurts if its done right
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Old 08-09-2009, 09:05 AM   #30
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
I doubt we have the highest infant mortality rate, that makes no sense considering we deliver in hospitals. Obesity is a problem, yes.
In defense of Arbiter's point, we don't have the lowest infant mortality in the world, we just have the lowest of developed nations.

BUT

Our infant mortality is higher because we attempt to save more children, through medical technology, and some do regrettably die. This negatively affects our infant mortality whereas most other countries cannot or do not include these figures. The child may simply die in the womb and not be apart of the statistic. Because we do so much more to save everyone, the stats go down.
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