Obama's Pastor

[bigdaddychacha]

As long as there are racist white people in America, I don't think there will be a law against warning black people about white racism, even if you do go overboard in your warning or if there are poor consequences for racial relations for another generation or so. I still think the salient issue is if you incite violence; shy of that, you can say whatever you want, and people have the right to listen to you or to leave your congregation.

[The Corporal]

Originally Posted by bigdaddychacha

This is an interesting conversation, I wish we had more deep talk like this on the ODN boards!

I've never had quite wonderfully deep and interesting conversations anywhere else, even in some of my college classes.

Originally Posted by bigdaddychacha

Why is it okay for Koreans to be angry at the Japanese but for blacks who have survived time periods that included lynchings, assassinations, fire hosings, police attack dogs, beatings, and pervasive societal racism, it is not okay?

Why is it okay for Jews to still be angry at a Germany that has gone to great, great lengths to show remorse for the Holocaust, to the extent of banning the Nazi party and symbolism from their country if blacks in America still have to contend with the ideology of an active KKK and are not supposed to be outraged by that?

I don't know if you noticed that there was a decreasing "level of hate" for each group I mentioned. Anyway, Korea and China were devastated by Imperial Japan and Japan never properly apologized for the mass murder and mass rape perpetrated under their rule. As much as Germany has apologized and gotten past the Nazi era, there's no forgetting the butchering of 6 million people and using the fat of dead Jews to make candles and soap. Sorry. However, in America, violence against blacks never reached the scale of the horrors suffered by Jews, Koreans, and Chinese in and before WWII. Yes, there were lynchings, rapes, and all the rest, but that violence was perpetrated by a small group of people when compared to the whole population of the country. Even though the KKK is still around (hey anyone, want to go KKK-member hunting? I'm thinking of getting a Yugo RPK with a 75rd drum mag soon....) blacks as a community should not hate all of America for their actions. I will not be held responsible for some southern racists lynching people 50 years before I was born, especially in light of the parenthesized section of my last sentence.

Originally Posted by bigdaddychacha

Can you name at least five examples of when blacks, as a race, have "actively pursued 'the destruction of the white enemy?'" That is merely rhetoric, and very old rhetoric at that, that was never seriously acted upon, outside of one or two riots or uprisings. Has Obama's pastor ever physically attacked a white person on the street, or had his church members engage in violence? No? Then it's just outdated rhetoric that is being used to stir the race-baiting undercurrent in America.

Melidan cleaned up on that one.

Originally Posted by bigdaddychacha

Threating freedom of speech with implied draconian punishments is not a very American way of countering someone else's opinions. The point is, he can say whatever he wants in America without punishment as long as he doesn't incite violence. He may have been a part of something that espoused "the destruction of the white enemy," but unless you can prove that he caused someone to act on that impulse, I think he's still in the clear.

You have a good point, I mentioned Stalin out of frustration. I do, however, believe that any violence committed in Rev. Wright's name or in the spirit of his "sermons" should result in his being held accountable (prison time, at the least). Any less would be like not arresting a KKK Grand Wizard because he only told his underlings that he wanted a black family killed instead of actually doing it himself.

[bigdaddychacha]

I don't know if you noticed that there was a decreasing "level of hate" for each group I mentioned. Anyway, Korea and China were devastated by Imperial Japan and Japan never properly apologized for the mass murder and mass rape perpetrated under their rule. As much as Germany has apologized and gotten past the Nazi era, there's no forgetting the butchering of 6 million people and using the fat of dead Jews to make candles and soap. Sorry.

For goodness sakes, you don't have to apologize to me! I'm well aware of the issues at stake in every single one of these attrocities. I don't think a "decreasing level of hate" is what you're talking about; you're talking about a decreasing scale of attrocity. Every breath is a life and all that, but after a few hundred thousand deaths, the level of hate is no longer the issue and the only question is in the efficiency and scale of what occurs. The point is, Germany apologized and took concrete steps to make up for it's crime while Japan and America have never fully owned up to their historical attrocities because large swaths of the population either deny that they ever occured or feel that racism is an acceptable outlook in life. If Germany can completely own up to it's enormous massacre of innocents, why can't Japan and America make ammends for our smaller (in scale only) attrocities? Sure, Germany is bad because what they did was on the most extreme scale, but America and Japan are also bad because, while the scale was smaller, they refuse to do what they can to make things right and in a lot of cases continue to hate the people who they should be begging the forgiveness of.

However, in America, violence against blacks never reached the scale of the horrors suffered by Jews, Koreans, and Chinese in and before WWII.

Comparative suffering ftl. Also, I'm pretty sure that you could argue that slavery was a lot worse than what the Koreans or Chinese experienced during at the hands of Japan from 1905 or so on. It happened on a larger scale and for a much longer time period than either of those other instances. At least the Chinese got a puppet government to give the illusion that they weren't being completely pwned by outside forces; Slaves never got anything approaching any semblance of self-government or representation. When blacks did start getting some of their first major leaders in the civil rights movement, a bunch of them got assassinated.

Yes, there were lynchings, rapes, and all the rest, but that violence was perpetrated by a small group of people when compared to the whole population of the country. Even though the KKK is still around (hey anyone, want to go KKK-member hunting? I'm thinking of getting a Yugo RPK with a 75rd drum mag soon....) blacks as a community should not hate all of America for their actions. I will not be held responsible for some southern racists lynching people 50 years before I was born, especially in light of the parenthesized section of my last sentence.

More lynchings actually took place in Northern states than Southern ones. The myth of Northern tolerance was exactly that: a myth. Were Medger Evars or Martin Luther King, Jr. killed 50 years before you were born? I will agree, though, anytime you wanna go KKK hunting, lemme know! I left a 9mm in America due to Korea's gun laws, but I'll come back and get it!

You have a good point, I mentioned Stalin out of frustration. I do, however, believe that any violence committed in Rev. Wright's name or in the spirit of his "sermons" should result in his being held accountable (prison time, at the least). Any less would be like not arresting a KKK Grand Wizard because he only told his underlings that he wanted a black family killed instead of actually doing it himself.

We could discuss that when it occurs...until then, we're just dealing in hypotheticals with the unspoken assumption that Wright has caused some violence, somewhere, which he hasn't. If he had, the Republicans and/or Hillary would have found out about it by now and used that against Obama, too.

[The Corporal]

Originally Posted by bigdaddychacha

For goodness sakes, you don't have to apologize to me! I'm well aware of the issues at stake in every single one of these attrocities. I don't think a "decreasing level of hate" is what you're talking about; you're talking about a decreasing scale of attrocity. Every breath is a life and all that, but after a few hundred thousand deaths, the level of hate is no longer the issue and the only question is in the efficiency and scale of what occurs. The point is, Germany apologized and took concrete steps to make up for it's crime while Japan and America have never fully owned up to their historical attrocities because large swaths of the population either deny that they ever occured or feel that racism is an acceptable outlook in life. If Germany can completely own up to it's enormous massacre of innocents, why can't Japan and America make ammends for our smaller (in scale only) attrocities? Sure, Germany is bad because what they did was on the most extreme scale, but America and Japan are also bad because, while the scale was smaller, they refuse to do what they can to make things right and in a lot of cases continue to hate the people who they should be begging the forgiveness of.

I just wonder where some people draw the line at an appropriate apology - clearly some think that death or enslavement of the entire white population is the only answer. And that would make them as bad, if not worse, than the people who enslaved their ancestors.

Comparative suffering ftl. Also, I'm pretty sure that you could argue that slavery was a lot worse than what the Koreans or Chinese experienced during at the hands of Japan from 1905 or so on. It happened on a larger scale and for a much longer time period than either of those other instances. At least the Chinese got a puppet government to give the illusion that they weren't being completely pwned by outside forces; Slaves never got anything approaching any semblance of self-government or representation. When blacks did start getting some of their first major leaders in the civil rights movement, a bunch of them got assassinated.

All good points. Slavery was a core institution for nearly 200 years. I would think battling the South and creating the 14th and 15th Amendments was pretty good recompense for the slavery period, but the more recent violence still has no "official apology." And for that to happen, we have to find and exterminate racist groups in America, 1st Amendment or not.

More lynchings actually took place in Northern states than Southern ones. The myth of Northern tolerance was exactly that: a myth. Were Medger Evars or Martin Luther King, Jr. killed 50 years before you were born? I will agree, though, anytime you wanna go KKK hunting, lemme know! I left a 9mm in America due to Korea's gun laws, but I'll come back and get it!

My history on some issues is a little rusty (my last history class was Europe 400-1500) so I concede this point. Then we can work on trading that 9mm for something in .45ACP.

We could discuss that when it occurs...until then, we're just dealing in hypotheticals with the unspoken assumption that Wright has caused some violence, somewhere, which he hasn't. If he had, the Republicans and/or Hillary would have found out about it by now and used that against Obama, too.

Yeah, in general, political opponents are very good at digging up any dirt on a person, no matter how long ago it happened. I heard yesterday on the radio Obama had raised $230 million for campaigning, I wonder how much of that has gone into fact-finding missions...