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Melidan
03-24-2008, 12:39 PM
Pretty much sums up my opinions on the subject...

SHOCK AND AWFUL
IRAQ: JUSTIFIABLE WAR, PLAGUED BY DC INCOMPETENCE
By: Ralph Peters, Lt. Col. (Ret.)

March 20, 2008 -- ON the fifth anniversary of our campaign to remove Saddam Hussein's monstrous regime from power, it's hard not to despair - not because of the situation in Iraq, which has improved remarkably, but because so few American politicians in either party appear to have drawn the right lessons from our experience.

For the record, I still believe that deposing Saddam was justified and useful. He was a Hitler, and he was our enemy. But I'm still reeling from the snotty incompetence with which the Bush administration acted. Above all, I'm ashamed that I trusted President Bush and his circle to have a plan for the day after Baghdad fell.

All of our other failures in Iraq stemmed from this fundamental neglect of a basic requirement: Our soldiers and Marines reached Baghdad without orders or strategic guidance. We became the dog that caught the fire truck. The tragedy is that it didn't have to be that way: One thing our military knows how to do is plan.

But the relevant staffs were prevented from doing so. Ideologues and avaricious friends of the administration wanted the war for their own reasons, and they didn't intend to alarm Congress with high cost estimates. So they trusted the perfumed tales of a convicted criminal, Ahmad Chalabi, rather than the professional views of the last honorable generals then-Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld had not yet removed.

Even on the purely military side, the White House put its faith in hopeless gimmicks, such as "Shock and Awe," convincing itself that ground troops were an afterthought. Of course, it was the old-fashioned grunts, tankers, gunners and supply sergeants who had to get us to Baghdad.

Iraq just didn't have to be this hard. We made it immeasurably more difficult by trying to make war on the cheap, then turning the war's aftermath into a looting orgy for well-connected contractors.


The fundamental requirement to provide security for the population - a troop-intensive endeavor - went ignored, while grandiose reconstruction projects drained the pockets of American taxpayers, only to come to nothing. Our troops and their battlefield leaders did all they could under Rumsfeld's yes-man generals, but every other branch of our government ducked. The "interagency effort" was a joke.

Back home, Congress indulged in cheap partisanship. The State Department concentrated on building the world's largest and most-expensive embassy - a project worthy of Saddam himself - and let the spectacularly incompetent Ambassador L. Paul Bremer wreck what little hope of maintaining peace remained.

The administration's solution to worsening conditions was to send more compliant generals, to continue listening to think-tank "experts" who had never served in uniform, to keep cutting fat checks for contractors and to let our troops bleed between photo ops.

None of us should mistake the fundamental truth: The only reason our efforts in Iraq have not failed completely has been the sustained valor and commitment of those in uniform. Our military was the only government entity that did its job. Its thanks have been betrayal by the political opposition at home, a rash of movies portraying our troops as psychotics and crocodile tears from protesters who secretly delight in US casualties.

In 2007, after four bloody years of denial, a desperate administration finally got serious about military requirements, sending the additional troops (now weary) who should have been deployed in 2003. With the wretched Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld headed out the door, the president also permitted a serious soldier, Gen. David Petraeus, to take charge in Iraq.


We got lucky, too. Our global enemies in al Qaeda alienated Iraq's Sunni Arabs in record time, indulging in grotesque forms of oppression and terror even Saddam and his sons had never dared to inflict. Those who recently had sided with al Qaeda against us found that we were their only hope to be rid of al Qaeda. The Sunni-Arab flip in Iraq has been a great strategic victory that resounds throughout the Muslim world.

The troop surge also had a powerful psychological effect, convincing enemies, fence-sitters and local allies alike that we weren't quitting - despite the results of the US midterm elections. And the Iraqi people were just sick of the violence. By 2007, most had gotten the worst bile out of their systems and wanted normal lives.

Even the often chaotic, corruption-addled Iraqi legislature managed to pass more major bills in 2007 than the US Congress sent to the president's desk.

The situation in Iraq is improving, as I've seen with my own eyes. Despite our cavalcade of errors, there's hope (no audacity required) for a reasonable outcome: an Iraq that treats its citizens decently and that neither harbors terrorists nor menaces its neighbors.

We'll need to sustain a longer commitment than would have been the case had the administration's know-it-alls not regarded our best generals as fools back in 2003. The administration's disgraceful treatment of then-Army Chief of Staff Gen. Eric Shinseki was paradigmatic of its arrogance.

Meanwhile, those who held power over our military and misused it so disgracefully will never suffer as our military casualties and their families will for the rest of their lives. At most, those privileged men will experience disappointing sales of their self-serving memoirs. Cowards sent heroes to die.

I cannot help repeating the heartbreaking truth that it didn't have to be this hard, this bloody, or this expensive. This is what happens when war is made by amateurs. Has anyone in Washington learned that lesson?


It's a lesson that the left, as well as the right, needs to take to heart. While the Bush administration deserves every lash it gets, domestic opponents of the war have been hypocritical, dishonest and destructive. As this column long has maintained, had President Bill Clinton sent our troops to depose Saddam Hussein, Democrats would have celebrated him as the greatest liberator since Abraham Lincoln.

The problem for the left wasn't really what was done, but who did it. And hatred of Bush actually empowered him - the administration had no incentive to reach out to those who wouldn't reach back, so it just did as it pleased. Today's "antiwar" left also contains plenty of politicians who backed interventions in the Balkans and Somalia, who would be glad to send American troops to Darfur today and who voted for war in Iraq.

Both parties are quick to employ our military. It's the only foreign-policy tool we have that works. Neither party is a peace party - each just wants to pick its own wars. The hypocrisy in Washington is as astonishing as the dishonesty about security needs.

Through it all, amazingly, our young men and women in uniform continue to serve honorably and skillfully, holding together not just Iraq but a fractured world. We whine and bicker. They re-enlist and go back to Iraq and Afghanistan. Where they're targets of scorn for our elitist media.

Given all our mistakes and partisan agendas, it's amazing Iraq is going as well as it is today. The improved conditions in Baghdad and most of the provinces verge on the miraculous, given the situation a year ago. But we've paid a needlessly high price.

As for President Bush, let's face it: He's been our most-inept wartime leader since James Madison fled the White House, leaving his wife behind to save what she could before the British troops arrived with torches.

That said, Bush has displayed one single worthy characteristic (one he shares, oddly enough, with Madison): He won't surrender.

As horribly as Bush performed for our first four years in Iraq, it's still possible to do worse. Both of the Democratic Party's presidential aspirants believe that the answer is to flee, handing the terrorists we've defeated a strategic victory, inviting a genocidal civil war, further destabilizing the Middle East, and sending the message to the world that Americans lack the courage and staying power of our enemies.

Declaring failure isn't the correct re sponse to failure narrowly avoided. Both Sens. Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton would kill a struggling convalescent. Bush's shambles would become the next administration's catastrophe. As president, Obama or Clinton would finish with far more blood on his or her hands than President Bush has on his.

Was deposing Saddam Hussein a good idea? Yes. I still believe that. It was an act of vision and virtue. It's only a shame we didn't do it competently.

https://secure.nypost.com/seven/03202008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/shock_and_awful_102665.htm?page=0

Pretty spot on... Honor the fallen, finish the job.

Villalba
03-24-2008, 12:46 PM
If we flee Iraq, then the entire Middle East will fall into mad chaos, and complete destruction. If we stay in Iraq, then we will keep on bleeding a very harsh wound to heal. So the answer is. Were f***ed.

AzureShadow
03-24-2008, 01:30 PM
If we flee Iraq, then the entire Middle East will fall into mad chaos, and complete destruction. If we stay in Iraq, then we will keep on bleeding a very harsh wound to heal. So the answer is. Were f***ed.

^This. We're in a bad situation, regardless.

And excellent article, by the way, although it's way too harsh on the Dems at the end.

The Corporal
03-24-2008, 03:15 PM
^This. We're in a bad situation, regardless.

And excellent article, by the way, although it's way too harsh on the Dems at the end.

I would say it's not harsh enough, but I suppose that's a result of my personal feelings getting in the way. To compare Bush/Iraq with Clinton/Serbia, I find it disgusting that people constantly complain about Bush being a warmonger for deposing Hussein, but praise Clinton for being a liberator for sending troops to stop the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo under Milosevic. The article is exactly right on about how liberals would be blowing sunshine up Clinton's butt for eternity if he had taken out Saddam 10 years ago.

Melidan
03-24-2008, 03:55 PM
I would say it's not harsh enough, but I suppose that's a result of my personal feelings getting in the way. To compare Bush/Iraq with Clinton/Serbia, I find it disgusting that people constantly complain about Bush being a warmonger for deposing Hussein, but praise Clinton for being a liberator for sending troops to stop the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo under Milosevic. The article is exactly right on about how liberals would be blowing sunshine up Clinton's butt for eternity if he had taken out Saddam 10 years ago.

Very well put Corporal, couldn't agree more.

Villalba
03-24-2008, 04:56 PM
Well, the nation itself was praising his butt for almost 7 years. That is when they found out that he was a sex craved, self consuming, nymphomaniack.

Iron Wolf
03-24-2008, 08:06 PM
Good article! It gives me some hope that there actually are news persons who can think and not just take the "sound bite of the moment" way of political commentary.

I'm an independant with serious leanings towards Democrat. Except in the coming election. I agree fully with The Corporal's viewpoint.

CptMcArthur
03-24-2008, 08:33 PM
As I am not American, my view on this probably counts for zilch, but I think a lot of people need to move on.

You have thousands of your people in Iraq at the moment, so thats it. You cannot pull them out on a whim, because you create a huge power vacuum. They are staying there for a while longer, so thats that. Support your troops, and stop the bloody whinging.

You cannot do anything about it now, so trying to will get nowhere. Do the job, and at least do it well.

Mind you, this is coming from the hard-arse who ignores nearly every single Admirality rule in favour of nailing the dumb fuckers, and trying to do the job well

:signs038:

Zagato
03-24-2008, 11:37 PM
True, pulling out of Iraq so soon would be a bad idea. I heard that Iraq is the second most unstable country in the world right now. If the US pulls out, I doubt Poland, Australia, the UK, etc. will be able to handle the country on their own.

Arcadian Empire
03-25-2008, 01:57 AM
Support the Troops.

They have feelings too =)

ClockworkOrange
03-25-2008, 06:25 AM
I don't think anyone's criticising the troops, just the ones who put them there and are keeping them there.

King Seifer Almasy
03-25-2008, 03:46 PM
i say screw it get our troops home and let the sobs fight it out if we didn't go over to Iraq in to first place we wouldn't be in the mess we are in today and we shouldn't have even stepped foot in that country

Scouser
03-25-2008, 04:35 PM
As I am not American, my view on this probably counts for zilch, but I think a lot of people need to move on.

You have thousands of your people in Iraq at the moment, so thats it. You cannot pull them out on a whim, because you create a huge power vacuum. They are staying there for a while longer, so thats that. Support your troops, and stop the bloody whinging.

You cannot do anything about it now, so trying to will get nowhere. Do the job, and at least do it well.

Mind you, this is coming from the hard-arse who ignores nearly every single Admirality rule in favour of nailing the dumb fuckers, and trying to do the job well

:signs038:
^that

Ceres
03-25-2008, 08:32 PM
We need to look Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9K7Pn_JLsec) for wisdom

CptMcArthur
03-25-2008, 10:11 PM
^that

Press my + reputation button :awesome:

Villalba
03-26-2008, 07:14 AM
Whoever comes in the white house, in 2008. Is in for one hell of a crap.

The Corporal
03-26-2008, 04:00 PM
Whoever comes in the white house, in 2008. Is in for one hell of a crap.

I don't think even Hillary could hold it in until her inauguration, her colon would explode. ;) But yes, I understand what you meant - no matter what position on many of the raging topics today you have, you have to agree that there's a lot of stuff to do. Hopefully the next President will be more prone to accomplishing campaign promises than this last midterm Congress....

Lincongrad
03-26-2008, 04:10 PM
I think Obama's solution is correct: put pressure on the military to start pulling out, otherwise we'll never get anything done.

Also, who the fuck's saying that taking Saddam out was unjustified? I'm just pissed over the fact that Bush used 'faulty intelligence' as his bullshit excuse for the war. I mean, he could have used an excuse I'd support (such as taking an evil man out of power) to give all his oil cronies their money... instead he chose a stupid one.

Iron Wolf
03-27-2008, 02:45 AM
The flaw in the line of reasoning about putting pressur on the miliutary to do the job and get out: The generals' and admirals' boss is a civilian. A couple different civilians, actually. The military is chewing up all the vehicles at an astounding rate, training budgets get slashed to put money in operational budgets, it's a tough way to gain new enlistees by having a shooting war going on. Peacetime recruiting is MUCH easier.

It isn't the military that is doing things wrong. A military's job in the end is to keep peace by killing the bad guys and in as great big a pile as can be managed. Period. And in that they are doing damn well. The problem is the flawed at best (in my opinion, non-existant) exit strategy. The military was sent in with no clear idea as to how bad sectarian violence could become, the ease in which insurgents can sneak in from Iran, Syria, etc... and not being allowed to go in there with enough equipment to turn several countries into parking lots (don't wanna hurt the delicate sensibilities of the public, after all, wars are supposed to be surgical and near bloodless nowadays).

The place to put the pressure is firmly at the Executive branch of government, and certainly not in the hands of anyone who even HINTS at a withdrawal timetable. We withdraw when the Iraqis are able to police themselves with some semblance of ethical behavior. That wasn't something they had a lot of under the last 30 or so years of Saddam's rule. They are gaining ground in that respect, they just need time to finish the job of weeding out those that are stirring up the hornets nests.

The Corporal
03-27-2008, 05:48 AM
The flaw in the line of reasoning about putting pressur on the miliutary to do the job and get out: The generals' and admirals' boss is a civilian. A couple different civilians, actually. The military is chewing up all the vehicles at an astounding rate, training budgets get slashed to put money in operational budgets, it's a tough way to gain new enlistees by having a shooting war going on. Peacetime recruiting is MUCH easier.

It isn't the military that is doing things wrong. A military's job in the end is to keep peace by killing the bad guys and in as great big a pile as can be managed. Period. And in that they are doing damn well. The problem is the flawed at best (in my opinion, non-existant) exit strategy. The military was sent in with no clear idea as to how bad sectarian violence could become, the ease in which insurgents can sneak in from Iran, Syria, etc... and not being allowed to go in there with enough equipment to turn several countries into parking lots (don't wanna hurt the delicate sensibilities of the public, after all, wars are supposed to be surgical and near bloodless nowadays).

The place to put the pressure is firmly at the Executive branch of government, and certainly not in the hands of anyone who even HINTS at a withdrawal timetable. We withdraw when the Iraqis are able to police themselves with some semblance of ethical behavior. That wasn't something they had a lot of under the last 30 or so years of Saddam's rule. They are gaining ground in that respect, they just need time to finish the job of weeding out those that are stirring up the hornets nests.

I could not have said it better myself. One thing you can notice between Iraq today and Iraq of a few years ago is that the situation has gotten a lot better. It might only be another 2 years before the situation has stabilized to the point where our presence is no longer required in force.

Villalba
03-27-2008, 06:35 AM
I could not have said it better myself. One thing you can notice between Iraq today and Iraq of a few years ago is that the situation has gotten a lot better. It might only be another 2 years before the situation has stabilized to the point where our presence is no longer required in force.

Your right, but still it feels like :angry4::xena_banana:

tom the pit leader
04-06-2008, 09:07 AM
I would be more inclined to agree if the president was anyone but Bush. No one can argue that the real cost in this war came from civilan contractors, the big ones being Haliburton and Blackwater. Both of these companies have strong tie to the republican party and to the Bush administaration. Given that everyone in the CIA told Bush that there were no terrorists in Iraq, as well as no WMD, or any of the other reasons we went, and that we could have easily finished Afganistan, I feel there is foul ball here.

Also, for the surge, did you read the papers last week? Sadar borke his cease-fire and all hell broke lose until he called it off. The peace comes from militas not fighting because they chose not to, not because they are afraid to. Anabar province is beeing paid 10$ a day per person to not fight. That's not progress, that's propoganda for the blind American people who don't really know or care what's happening.

The Corporal
04-06-2008, 10:15 AM
I would be more inclined to agree if the president was anyone but Bush. No one can argue that the real cost in this war came from civilan contractors, the big ones being Haliburton and Blackwater. Both of these companies have strong tie to the republican party and to the Bush administaration. Given that everyone in the CIA told Bush that there were no terrorists in Iraq, as well as no WMD, or any of the other reasons we went, and that we could have easily finished Afganistan, I feel there is foul ball here.

Also, for the surge, did you read the papers last week? Sadar borke his cease-fire and all hell broke lose until he called it off. The peace comes from militas not fighting because they chose not to, not because they are afraid to. Anabar province is beeing paid 10$ a day per person to not fight. That's not progress, that's propoganda for the blind American people who don't really know or care what's happening.

Right now in Afghanistan the only way to easily finish the fighting would be to tac-nuke every square inch of mountains in the south and east of the country. France is sending another 1000 troops because the Taliban resistance is still alive and kicking. I highly doubt anyone in the administration, even the worst yes-men, could claim that Afghanistan would be "easily finished."

And yes, civilian contractors are the primary reason why the war is so expensive and yes, Halliburton is a giant bunch of jerks, but would you rather we just left every building we destroyed as they are - piles of rubble? I say that even though the situation we're in now (with the expense of the war and the cronyism between the government and Halliburton, etc.) is preferable to forcing Iraqi children to hold classes in piles of rubble. We went in there, we ousted an evil dictator, the way we ousted the dictator allowed sectarian violence to throw Iraq into turmoil, now we have to finish what we started and make Iraq a better place than when we went in. Period.

Villalba
04-07-2008, 05:17 AM
Problem with Iraq is that, the nation itself is full of Bs. Oil pipelines dirty and broken. Good insurgency strategy, and a weird yet effective way of fighting. By going on roofs, bombing cars, hiding below ground. Let me tell you. Even if the US and A, is successfull. Then it would have cut the military strenght by half. If this isn't over by 2010...well, im happy not to be in America.