Here we go again

[James Davis]

A 7-year-old radio interview in which Barack Obama discussed the failure of the Supreme Court to rule on redistributing wealth in its civil rights rulings has given fresh ammunition to critics who say the Democratic presidential candidate has a socialist agenda.

The interview -- conducted by Chicago Public Radio in 2001, while Obama was an Illinois state senator and a law professor at the University of Chicago -- delves into whether the civil rights movement should have gone further than it did, so that when "dispossessed peoples" appealed to the high court on the right to sit at the lunch counter, they should have also appealed for the right to have someone else pay for the meal.

In the interview, Obama said the civil rights movement was victorious in some regards, but failed to create a "redistributive change" in its appeals to the Supreme Court, led at the time by Chief Justice Earl Warren. He suggested that such change should occur at the state legislature level, since the courts did not interpret the U.S. Constitution to permit such change.

"The Supreme Court never ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth and sort of basic issues of political and economic justice in this society, and to that extent as radical as people try to characterize the Warren Court, it wasn't that radical," Obama said in the interview, a recording of which surfaced on the Internet over the weekend.

"It didn't break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the founding fathers in the Constitution, at least as it has been interpreted.

"And the Warren court interpreted it generally in the same way -- that the Constitution is a document of negative liberties, says what the states can't do to you, says what the federal government can't do to you, but it doesn't say what the federal government or state government must do on your behalf, and that hasn't shifted.

"And I think one of the tragedies of the civil rights movement was that the civil rights movement became so court-focused, I think there was a tendency to lose track of the political and organizing activities on the ground that are able to bring about the coalitions of power through which you bring about redistributive change, and in some ways we still suffer from that," Obama said.

The 2001 interview evokes recent questioning by Joe "The Plumber" Wurzelbacher, the Ohio man who asked Obama about his proposal to raise taxes on people making more than $250,000. Obama told Wurzelbacher he wants to hike taxes on the wealthy so that the government can spread the wealth.

Obama campaign spokesman Bill Burton said Monday the comments on the tape have "nothing to do with Obama's economic plan or his plan to give the middle class a tax cut."

"Here are the facts. In the interview, Obama went into extensive detail to explain why the courts should not get into that business of 'redistributing' wealth. Obama's point -- and what he called a tragedy -- was that legal victories in the civil rights led too many people to rely on the courts to change society for the better. That view is shared by conservative judges and legal scholars across the country," Burton said..

"As Obama has said before and written about, he believes that change comes from the bottom up -- not from the corridors of Washington. ... And so Obama's point was simply that if we want to improve economic conditions for people in this country, we should do so by bringing people together at the community level and getting everyone involved in our democratic process," Burton continued.

John McCain's campaign said the tape proves that Obama is too liberal for the White House.

Now we know that the slogans 'change you can believe in' and 'change we need' are code words for Barack Obama's ultimate goal: 'redistributive change,'" said McCain-Palin senior policy adviser Doug Holtz-Eakin.

"Barack Obama expressed his regret that the Supreme Court hadn't been more 'radical' and described as a 'tragedy' the court's refusal to take up 'the issues of redistribution of wealth.' No wonder he wants to appoint judges that legislate from the bench," Holtz-Eakin continued.

National Review reporter Byron York, a FOX News contributor, said the U.S. government already has a progressive tax system that gives money earned by one group to another group, but it's a matter of degree. He added that Obama's outlook on that system hasn't changed.

"It seems clear from listening to this that the Obama of 2001 and probably the Obama of today feels that the government doesn't do that enough, and I think that's probably the big point in this tape," York said.

"You've got to take him at his word," York added. "It seems to me that the tape shows that this is simply a goal he has had for a long time."

In a speech in Cleveland on Monday, McCain said the Obama interview is just another indication that the Democrat wants to increase sharply the amount of government spending.

"Today, he claims he will only tax the rich. But we've seen in the past that he's willing to support taxes that hit people squarely in the middle class, and with a trillion dollars in new spending, the most likely outcome is that everyone who pays taxes will be paying for his spending," McCain said.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/27/radio-interview-obama-laments-lack-supreme-court-ruling-redistributing-wealth/

A more in depth article can be found here. (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YmFhYzIzMGQ1Y2FlMTA4N2M1N2VmZWUzM2Y4ZmNmYmI=)

Here's the interview. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck)

Of the major news services, only FOX is headlining it. ABC fit the story into a subpoint of larger story (title gives no hint), and the story is entirely absent from CNN, CBS, MSNBC, and NBC.

What makes this even more shameful is that this was uncovered by ONE MAN. What the hell is our media doing?! Well, they'll get to make up for their laziness on this issue now that they have to spin it into obscurity for the next week.

tl;dr: New evidence strongly supporting the belief that Obama favors class warfare, redistribution of income, etc. And the MSM is trying to bury it.

[Melidan]

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk308/civil_truth/ChainsforObama.jpg

[The Corporal]

Why do people still doubt the now plainly obvious fact that Obama is a socialist? You can try to explain away his voting record, his comments to Joe The Plumber, but you can't get around this.

[The Arbiter]

This may be a new hope for McCain. Hopefully the media doesn't try to ignore this (which it probably will) and actually talks about this.

[tom the pit leader]

What I still don't get is why you act like socializm is a bad thing.

[ParkerBaby]

This may be a new hope for McCain. Hopefully the media doesn't try to ignore this (which it probably will) and actually talks about this.

Oh they all will. They want Obama too win, means better business and money for them if he does, obviously because hes Liberal as hell, and the media is obvious Liberal as hell... 1+1= 2 most of the time, except in New York.

:P

[Helochut]

What I still don't get is why you act like socializm is a bad thing.

Only Americans >_>
Canada embraces socialism, see Canadian Dream by Sam Roberts. Sweet song too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo_S13SYeZw

[AzureShadow]

What I still don't get is why you act like socializm is a bad thing.

Finally someone who agrees...


Personally, I welcome his changes, simply because this country will never be completely one type of system. A blend of capitalism and socialism is better than either of the two alone. People who don't get that obviously haven't payed any attention to the Great Depression or our current economic problem.

Wanna know what fixed the Great Depression? Socialism, people.

[James Davis]

Finally someone who agrees...


Personally, I welcome his changes, simply because this country will never be completely one type of system. A blend of capitalism and socialism is better than either of the two alone. People who don't get that obviously haven't payed any attention to the Great Depression or our current economic problem.

Wanna know what fixed the Great Depression? Socialism, people.

1. Our economy WAS a mixed economy. The government had regulations put on the market, frankly they had too much power over things (see housing crisis). Obama wants market socialism, however. As we can see from our friends in Europe this program has been tremendously successful.

France:
Unemployment: 9%
% economic growth for 2007: 2%

Sweden:
Unemployment: 13-17%
% economic growth for 2007: 2.1%

Germany:
Unemployment: 11.5%
% economic growth for 2007: 1.2%

and us...

United States:
Unemployment: 4.6%
% economic growth for 2007: 3.2%

The reason I so heartily object to socialism in any form is because it SUCKS in practice. Additionally, studies have shown that it becomes even more inefficient when put into practice on a large scale, (ie US vs. little Euro country).

2. Socialism did NOT bring us out of the Depression. Socialism would have included taxing the high wage-earners and giving their wealth to the unemployed. The New Deal simply implemented government projects that cooperated with private companies in order to employ more people. Additionally, the New Deal didn't get us out of the Depression. It did buy our economy some time, but only WWII really ended the Great Depression.

[Hubb]

What I still don't get is why you act like socializm is a bad thing.

Are you being serious? :hum_:

[Melidan]

Wanna know what fixed the Great Depression? Socialism, people.

No, world War II and the most massive military build up in world history did. I think you give the TVA too much credit..

[tom the pit leader]

Well the war helped, no doubts there, but if the war had happend in '33 or if we had still been in a simalr situation to 32-33, we wouldn't have been able to kick off like we did.

[AzureShadow]

No, world War II and the most massive military build up in world history did. I think you give the TVA too much credit..

Yes, WWII definitely brought us out of it, but the New Deal helped a lot. We wouldn't have as effective a military, and quite possibly could have lost, if we hadn't been getting back off the ground when we got involved.

And I think the Cold War nuclear buildup was more than WWII. Remember, Nukes cost a lot more than soldiers and tanks, and add a lot more NS.

[Imperial]

OMG, all the conservatives flocked to the thread with a Fox News article :P

I waste energy typing this, but...Obama isn't a socialist. He does pursue nationalist policies however, such as universal health care and using the tax code as a means to equalize wealth through services like welfare, SSI, food stamps etc.

[Assarax]

OMG, all the conservatives flocked to the thread with a Fox News article :P

I waste energy typing this, but...Obama isn't a socialist. He does pursue nationalist policies however, such as universal health care and using the tax code as a means to equalize wealth through services like welfare, SSI, food stamps etc.

No, No, you forget, conservatives view anyone to the left of the political spectrum as socialist and communist.

[Imperial]

No, No, you forget, conservatives view anyone to the left of the political spectrum as socialist and communist.

I know Assarax, but I figured I'd toss in clarification for good measure. McCarthyism is alive & well to be sure.

[Illusion]

Too much to read, i'll pull a Palin and get back to you later on that issue.

[James Davis]

No, No, you forget, conservatives view anyone to the left of the political spectrum as socialist and communist.

Now, now, Assa. I don't label just anyone a socialist. Bill Clinton was not a socialist, hell even Hillary isn't a socialist. Up until today, I haven't even called Obama a socialist, but this is the nail in the coffin regarding his economic beliefs.

[Lord Necronomis]

Um. . .okay, I'm going to throw this out there. One of my current writings is a bit of political theory in which I'm constructing a new form of government most closely resembling socialism. Most people could call me a socialist in theory, and I would not find insult in it. However, to create a socialist nation that works, you need someone who is perfect and incorruptable, and that's not going to happen.

The United States isn't a socialist nation, it's a capitalist republic. In the kind of system that we have in place, it's most logical and efficient for people to preserve and manage their own money. Things like welfare and social security are draining the economy right now, because they put out more money than is taken in per person. If someone were to have the power to re-write out country into a proper socialist democracy, then all the power to that style of economic management; in our system though, all it does is hurt the country because the government doesn't have the authority or the money to recompense. So yea, I'm not a blind man. I'm not a "moron that's sticking to old guns." I understand how socialism works, and I understand that Obama isn't a full-on socialist. Our country isn't built for those kinds of programs that he supports.

Also, a note that you can find from reading -his own platforms on his own campaign page.- Obama wants to cut taxes for 95% of the working class, yet almost all of his programs call for "increase of funding." He acknowledges that our current system is creating a larger deficit. For some reason, he wants to fix it by limiting the income the government gets, and at the same time increasing spending. That's. . .just a slight mathematical error, isn't it?

[The Corporal]

Oh they all will. They want Obama too win, means better business and money for them if he does, obviously because hes Liberal as hell, and the media is obvious Liberal as hell... 1+1= 2 most of the time, except in New York.

:P
Yes, Mayor Bloomberg is making sure 1+1=3...

Too much to read, i'll pull a Palin and get back to you later on that issue.

Oh, I figured you'd avoid the question completely because it was above your pay grade. :P

[Melidan]

And I think the Cold War nuclear buildup was more than WWII. Remember, Nukes cost a lot more than soldiers and tanks, and add a lot more NS.

ROFL! :D

I waste energy typing this, but...Obama isn't a socialist. He does pursue nationalist policies however, such as universal health care and using the tax code as a means to equalize wealth through services like welfare, SSI, food stamps etc.

Wait, you mean like National Socialism..? I, oh... :ph34r:








:p

[The Corporal]

I waste energy typing this, but...Obama isn't a socialist. He does pursue nationalist policies however, such as universal health care and using the tax code as a means to equalize wealth through services like welfare, SSI, food stamps etc.

That right there is the definition of socialism. A nationalist policy would be to make flag burning punishable by a prison term (something Obama won't do), browbeat the state governments into giving up their delegated powers to the federal government (National Drinking Age Act anyone?), and outlawing forms of dissent against the government (something Democrats in Congress have been indirectly supporting for awhile now - look up the Fairness Doctrine some time). What was that....um....ah yes, you can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig....I think I got that right. :P

[leninrocks244]

What I still don't get is why you act like socializm is a bad thing.

Because it's unamerican and it'll let Iran win.

God damn commie terrorist.

:angry:

[leninrocks244]

Finally someone who agrees...


Personally, I welcome his changes, simply because this country will never be completely one type of system. A blend of capitalism and socialism is better than either of the two alone. People who don't get that obviously haven't payed any attention to the Great Depression or our current economic problem.

Wanna know what fixed the Great Depression? Socialism, people.

Actually, WWII fixed the depression. The New Deal actually soothed it for 9 out of 10 people, but it didn't solve it.

[Hubb]

No, No, you forget, conservatives view anyone to the left of the political spectrum as socialist and communist.

No, we don't. We view those who want to redistribute wealth, take away gun rights, and raise our taxes to bloat the government bureaucracy as socialist.

Get your facts straight, Ass! :P

[Lord Necronomis]

Reiteration just because it seems either I've been ignored, or someone doesn't want to take the time to understand what I said.

** I'm a believer of Socialism.
** I admit that Socialism in it's purest form would be a wonderful thing.
** It's realistically not going to happen because of the utter perfection it takes to get there.
** In -our- system we have in place, I'm a conservative, because that's the way the system was built to work.

Ta-da, a conservative that labels himself as a socialist.
Socialism isn't a bad thing. Socialist projects in a predominately capitalist system is.
Equalizing and redistrubiting wealth in a wealth-driven system = collapse. It's just simple logic. Oh, wait, not anymore. Now it's proven fact.
*looks at the deficit and the stock market, then the low/no-income mortgages and social security.*

If an economy is driven by competition, driven by desire to be the best and -earn- what you have, then taking away competition and handing out what people will have is literally the direct and obvious opposite of "benefit."

[leninrocks244]

Reiteration just because it seems either I've been ignored, or someone doesn't want to take the time to understand what I said.

** I'm a believer of Socialism.
** I admit that Socialism in it's purest form would be a wonderful thing.
** It's realistically not going to happen because of the utter perfection it takes to get there.
** In -our- system we have in place, I'm a conservative, because that's the way the system was built to work.

Ta-da, a conservative that labels himself as a socialist.
Socialism isn't a bad thing. Socialist projects in a predominately capitalist system is.
Equalizing and redistrubiting wealth in a wealth-driven system = collapse. It's just simple logic. Oh, wait, not anymore. Now it's proven fact.
*looks at the deficit and the stock market, then the low/no-income mortgages and social security.*

If an economy is driven by competition, driven by desire to be the best and -earn- what you have, then taking away competition and handing out what people will have is literally the direct and obvious opposite of "benefit."

You're a Socialist too? Shit, and for awhile there you had me going that you were a Conservative. :awesome:

[James Davis]

This is becoming laughable: http://www.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/letters/view.bg?articleid=1128260

The LA Times has acquired a video of Obama praising an anti-Israel extremist in 2003. They're not going public with it until after the election, saying that "the story speaks for itself."

Well, at least they got THAT right....

[Melidan]

This is becoming laughable: http://www.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/letters/view.bg?articleid=1128260

The LA Times has acquired a video of Obama praising an anti-Israel extremist in 2003. They're not going public with it until after the election, saying that "the story speaks for itself."

Well, at least they got THAT right....

Bumped for great justice

[Villalba]

What I still don't get is why you act like socializm is a bad thing.

^That, it is clear when a country is in crisis it turns to larger government to handle its problems. Obama will rule without checks and balance to get his agenda done in 4 years. Maybe even 8 years.

[tom the pit leader]

Right, because when we were scared after 9/11, the republican congress didn't pass anything illeagl like the patriot act which is clearly a violation of the 4th amenedment.

OH WAIT,

i guess they did.

[Illusion]

Why do people still doubt the now plainly obvious fact that Obama is a socialist?


Because some people have a BRAIN, and vote for themselves and their families, not just their party. He's not a socialist, socialism is mcCain/Bush's vote to grant the already rich CEO's of wall street a 700 Billion dollar welfare check....THAT'S socialism. And it's not SOME people, it's MOST people. Sorry to break the news, but your old guy, McCain, is losing and losing bad. He can't even keep control of his VP, let alone the nation. This race is over...maybe because America is smarter than many McCain supporters think we are. I'm an independent, i've voted GOP and Dem over the years...but i'm for Obama/Biden this year. Why? Because it's the smart thing to do. There are times we need republicans in office, there are times we need a dem in office...THIS time, we need a democrat for president...but I did vote for a few republicans on my ticket for house and senate...cuz as an independent, I HAVE A CHOICE. McCain doesn't give a shit about my family, just those in his tax bracket. I'm sorry, but a vote for McCain would be a vote against my kids, and I can't let that happen. While McCain and Bush are trying to save Iraq, America is dying...it ends on January 20th.

PS - The patriot Act is a piece of shit.

[James Davis]

Because some people have a BRAIN, and vote for themselves and their families, not just their party. He's not a socialist, socialism is mcCain/Bush's vote to grant the already rich CEO's of wall street a 700 Billion dollar welfare check....THAT'S socialism. And it's not SOME people, it's MOST people. Sorry to break the news, but your old guy, McCain, is losing and losing bad. He can't even keep control of his VP, let alone the nation. This race is over...maybe because America is smarter than many McCain supporters think we are. I'm an independent, i've voted GOP and Dem over the years...but i'm for Obama/Biden this year. Why? Because it's the smart thing to do. There are times we need republicans in office, there are times we need a dem in office...THIS time, we need a democrat for president...but I did vote for a few republicans on my ticket for house and senate...cuz as an independent, I HAVE A CHOICE. McCain doesn't give a shit about my family, just those in his tax bracket. I'm sorry, but a vote for McCain would be a vote against my kids, and I can't let that happen. While McCain and Bush are trying to save Iraq, America is dying...it ends on January 20th.

PS - The patriot Act is a piece of shit.

To challenge any of the rest would be kicking a dead horse, as each of us have rather different (and totally immovable) opinions on what is best for this country, but this race isn't quite over yet for a couple of reasons.

1. The polls are fluctuating violently. The most recent Pew National Poll has Obama up by 15, while the traditional Gallup poll has him up by 2. Which one is right?

2. The polls were repeatedly off in the primaries, most often overstating Obama's support by 3-6 points.

3. Demographics, demographics, demographics. This one goes both ways. In polling, older voters are less likely to agree to take a survey, and because older voters are supporting McCain, McCain's perceived strength would be undermined by that.

On the flip side, Obama has an overwhelming advantage in the youth and blacks. Historically, neither of these groups have turned out well. There is no doubt that their turnout will be higher than in the past, but the question is how much higher?

4. In recent (as well has distant) history, black candidates have done very, very, VERY, poorly with late-decidng voters. In virtually every competitive primary race, Hillary beat Obama with late deciders by margins ranging from 60-40% to 80-20%. If you look at various Senate races of the past, Ford vs. Corker, Gannt vs. Helms, etc, you will find that the white candidate, regardless of party affiliation or eventual winner, consistently took 75-85% of the undecided vote. With polls showing that 8-9% of the country is still "undecided," things could get interesting.

5. McCain is gaining. New polls out today show McCain gains of 3 in the Gallup Poll, 3 in Rasmussen, and 7 in Zogby from the previous poll by each organization. There are six days left. The major polling outlets have McCain down by 2-5%, not 12-15%, as many of the (liberal) news agency polls do.

With all of that said, do I think McCain will come back to win? Nope. Is it possible that I'm completely wrong about this stuff? Sure, but I've researched this stuff, and I feel everything I've said here is legitimate.

[Lord Necronomis]

I'll add that making the rich richer isn't socialism there, chuckles. Socialism, as said by so many, can be summed as redistribution of wealth. Whether or not you agree with what happened, it's impossible to validate a claim that Bush's policies or McCain's proposed agenda is socialist. So, um, yea. . .you just basically said "nu-uh, you are!" without any. . .anything. . . whatsoever.

[The Corporal]

Because some people have a BRAIN, and vote for themselves and their families, not just their party. He's not a socialist, socialism is mcCain/Bush's vote to grant the already rich CEO's of wall street a 700 Billion dollar welfare check....THAT'S socialism.

You mean the welfare check (I'm not even going to waste my time comparing that particular choice of words to a traditional socialist and Democrat belief of handouts for the lazy) that was overwhelmingly supported by Democrats like, oh, I don't know....Barack Obama? If you mean that bill, I'd like you to know that I disagree with the bailout. Just because I have voted Republican in the past and have overwhelmingly conservative tendencies does not make me a Republican automaton, like so many Obama supporters have become Obamatrons. I think Bush, Obama, and anyone who voted for the bailout is actively supporting a ridiculously wasteful socialist policy. I am stunned that anybody with two brain cells to rub together can continue lying to themselves that Obama does not in any way support socialism. Look at his voting record, look at his interviews, and don't forget to take off the rose-colored goggles. Obama is a socialist. He has outlined socialist policies as being the backbone of his presidency. He has supported socialist policies in the past. He is a student of and friends with a clown car-load of socialists. Why keep denying it?

[leninrocks244]

I'll add that making the rich richer isn't socialism there, chuckles. Socialism, as said by so many, can be summed as redistribution of wealth. Whether or not you agree with what happened, it's impossible to validate a claim that Bush's policies or McCain's proposed agenda is socialist. So, um, yea. . .you just basically said "nu-uh, you are!" without any. . .anything. . . whatsoever.

Agreed. Making the rich richer is what Socialists want to destroy ultimately, not just for a period of a few years.

[AzureShadow]

You mean the welfare check (I'm not even going to waste my time comparing that particular choice of words to a traditional socialist and Democrat belief of handouts for the lazy) that was overwhelmingly supported by Democrats like, oh, I don't know....Barack Obama? If you mean that bill, I'd like you to know that I disagree with the bailout. Just because I have voted Republican in the past and have overwhelmingly conservative tendencies does not make me a Republican automaton, like so many Obama supporters have become Obamatrons. I think Bush, Obama, and anyone who voted for the bailout is actively supporting a ridiculously wasteful socialist policy. I am stunned that anybody with two brain cells to rub together can continue lying to themselves that Obama does not in any way support socialism. Look at his voting record, look at his interviews, and don't forget to take off the rose-colored goggles. Obama is a socialist. He has outlined socialist policies as being the backbone of his presidency. He has supported socialist policies in the past. He is a student of and friends with a clown car-load of socialists. Why keep denying it?

So you mean the bailout bill that both Obama AND McCain discussed and voted for?

[The Corporal]

So you mean the bailout bill that both Obama AND McCain discussed and voted for?

Yes, exactly. I don't agree with all of McCain's policies, I never have (you can look up threads from around the time of the primaries for proof). I am pro-choice, I am anti-bailout, I am pro-gun - all in opposition to McCain's beliefs. McCain is not the best man for the job, but with him in charge the next four years won't be too bad. Obama will raise our taxes and make us even more of an international laughingstock when the world sees what little judgment he has with foreign policy decisions. Joe Biden can't do everything for him, foreign policy-wise...

[James Davis]

Yes, exactly. I don't agree with all of McCain's policies, I never have (you can look up threads from around the time of the primaries for proof). I am pro-choice, I am anti-bailout, I am pro-gun - all in opposition to McCain's beliefs. McCain is not the best man for the job, but with him in charge the next four years won't be too bad. Obama will raise our taxes and make us even more of an international laughingstock when the world sees what little judgment he has with foreign policy decisions. Joe Biden can't do everything for him, foreign policy-wise...

And I'm anti-death penalty, opposed to cap and trade, and opposed to the bailout, all in conflict with McCain, and basically agree with everything you said.

[bigdaddychacha]

And I'm anti-death penalty, opposed to cap and trade, and opposed to the bailout, all in conflict with McCain, and basically agree with everything you said.You're anti-capital-punishment? That surprises me, pleasantly!

[James Davis]

You're anti-capital-punishment? That surprises me, pleasantly!

I'm not a total neocon ideologue. :P For clarification:

Abortion- against
Capital punishment- against
Stem cell research- for
Gun control - for
Corporate taxes- cut by about 15%
Income tax- cut in half
Capital gains- keep where they are
Social Security- privatize individual accounts
Welfare- cut by about 80%
National Defense- MOAR!!!
Iraq- Out by 2012, maintain permanent base and residual force.
Torture- waterboarding and similar tactics only.
Iran, Syria, China, Russia, North Korea, and other bad guys- Deal with as necessary.
So really, I'm more like an anti-abortion, hawkish, fiscal conservative.

Help any? :D

[Megamind]

What I still don't get is why you act like socializm is a bad thing.

I didn't feel like reading the rest of the topic...just wanted to point out that I agree with this...except his way of spelling socialism...

[Melidan]

I'm not a total neocon ideologue. :P For clarification:

Abortion- against
Capital punishment- against
Stem cell research- for
Gun control - for
Corporate taxes- cut by about 15%
Income tax- cut in half
Capital gains- keep where they are
Social Security- privatize individual accounts
Welfare- cut by about 80%
National Defense- MOAR!!!
Iraq- Out by 2012, maintain permanent base and residual force.
Torture- waterboarding and similar tactics only.
Iran, Syria, China, Russia, North Korea, and other bad guys- Deal with as is necessary.
So really, I'm more like an anti-abortion, hawkish, fiscal conservative.

Help any? :D

I disagree with you on...

- Capital Punishment, although I'am iffy..
- Stem Cell Research, there is two schools of thought. Studies have proven that there is no need for embryo stem cell harvesting. The same benefits can be had from adult stem cells.. So, I support adult stem cell research.
- Gun Control, you want more..?? * Melidan has shocked look

[bigdaddychacha]

I'm not a total neocon ideologue. :P For clarification:

Abortion- against
Capital punishment- against
Stem cell research- for
Gun control - for
Corporate taxes- cut by about 15%
Income tax- cut in half
Capital gains- keep where they are
Social Security- privatize individual accounts
Welfare- cut by about 80%
National Defense- MOAR!!!
Iraq- Out by 2012, maintain permanent base and residual force.
Torture- waterboarding and similar tactics only.
Iran, Syria, China, Russia, North Korea, and other bad guys- Deal with as necessary.
So really, I'm more like an anti-abortion, hawkish, fiscal conservative.

Help any? :DYou're for gun control?
...
...
I'm a liberal, and even I'm against that!
U damned hippy!!!11eleventyone1

[James Davis]

I disagree with you on...

- Capital Punishment, although I'am iffy..
- Stem Cell Research, there is two schools of thought. Studies have proven that there is no need for embryo stem cell harvesting. The same benefits can be had from adult stem cells.. So, I support adult stem cell research.
- Gun Control, you want more..?? * Melidan has shocked look

You're for gun control?
...
...
I'm a liberal, and even I'm against that!
U damned hippy!!!11eleventyone1

I should clarify that total gun control is not cool at all. However, I think you should have to pass a series of tests (knowledge, competence, mental stability) in order to get one. I don't want to take people's rifles and shotguns away, but lets face it, there are a lot of people out there who have no business carrying a gun.

Oh, and Mel, I'm pretty much with you on SSR. It looks like the embryonic debate is on its way out, so that makes things a little easier for me, too.

[Melidan]

I do agree with you, there are lots of nitwits out there. But if your going to make a 2nd Amendment argument, it will be hard to point out the section where it states you have to take a test to have one.. Just sayin. I wouldn't mind state regulations saying you have to take a weapons safety and competency course, though. States rights ftw.

[James Davis]

I do agree with you, there are lots of nitwits out there. But if your going to make a 2nd Amendment argument, it will be hard to point out the section where it states you have to take a test to have one.. Just sayin. I wouldn't mind state regulations saying you have to take a weapons safety and competency course, though. States rights ftw.

On second thought, I might renege my thoughts if Obama gets elected....We'll need some way to overthrow him when he starts putting the Constitution through his leftist paper shredder.

[Melidan]

On second thought, I might renege my thoughts if Obama gets elected....We'll need some way to overthrow him when he starts putting the Constitution through his leftist paper shredder.

A Patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government

[IronsightSniper]

Wait, wasn't the video of this posted a few days ago?
If so, JD HAD A PREMONITION!!!

[Ayrrie]

I have to disagree with you on capital punishment and abortion, James, but otherwise I find you quite reasonable. I'm assuming by later posts that your opinion on gun control is state-mandated requirements for owning and carrying one as opposed to federal requirements.

What I don't understand is why people want the government to have MORE control over their lives and activities. When people bitch, they always say that bad times are because of the government, no matter which party is in office. Why on EARTH would you want someone who just wants to increase government control?

Remove some government power, and suddenly people find that they have no one to blame but themselves. That's usually quite the bite in the ass.

[leninrocks244]

I'm pretty undecided about capital punishment, but I think women should get an abortion if they want to. Then again, reason < religion, so no moar abortions!!!

[The Corporal]

Me:

Abortion- pro-choice
Capital punishment- for, including people convicted of attempted murder (just because you fail at killing someone doesn't mean that you should get a lighter sentence)
Stem cell research- for
Gun control - against (what part of "shall not be infringed" don't some people understand?), but I do agree with keeping legal guns out of the hands of felons and the mentally impaired
Corporate taxes- cut by about 15%
Income tax- cut in half
Capital gains- keep where they are
Social Security- privatize individual accounts
Welfare- cut by about 100%
National Defense- MOAR!!! (also, allow women to serve on the front lines if they so choose, with the caveat that if there is any harassment or other funny business, all involved parties will be dishonorably discharged immediately)
Iraq- completely out when the job is done
Torture- waterboarding and similar tactics only.
Iran, Syria, China, Russia, North Korea, and other bad guys- Deal with as necessary.

I'll also add a few more:
Education - NCLB is the worst idea ever. Everyone works at their own pace and the best and brightest should not be held up by diverting resources to kids who don't have the desire to learn (a.k.a., not everyone will be a doctor ;) ). I'd also like to see continued or increased funding for music, more focus on science, and more practical learning - simple home repairs, basic finance, gun safety (to cut down on kid/gun accidents, doesn't need to be a marksmanship class), and anything else I may have forgotten.

Immigration - build a fence, mobilize National Guard units, allow shoot-to-kill orders for known fugitives and drug runners, ramp up enforcement of labor laws, and make it easier for people to legally enter the U.S. (with the stipulation that people must be able to speak passable English and know the principles upon which this country was founded).

Space - the romantic idea of a "space race" is a contributing factor to our current dilemma regarding space exploration. If we had slowly built up our space infrastructure and had a long-term plan in place in the 50s, we'd probably already have a settlement on the moon or even Mars by now. Instead, we wasted 40 years and untold billions of dollars trying to outstep the Russians - and we're headed for the same with China in the next 20 years. It's important for us to explore new frontiers not only because there are scientific discoveries to be made or new colonies to inhabit, but also because exploration in general has been a hallmark of our civilization and, in the last 150-200 years, we've had nowhere to explore except the dark corners of human behavior.

I do agree with you, there are lots of nitwits out there. But if your going to make a 2nd Amendment argument, it will be hard to point out the section where it states you have to take a test to have one.. Just sayin. I wouldn't mind state regulations saying you have to take a weapons safety and competency course, though. States rights ftw.
I'd like to see a safety/competency test for first-time gun buyers. Things like "do you know how to operate the safety," "do you know not to point it at anything you don't want to shoot," and "always check whether there is a round in the chamber when cleaning/inspecting/holstering the gun." I would even consider supporting legislation that prevents repeat misdemeanor offenders from owning; if there is a history of crime it might be prudent to withhold the ability to legally obtain a weapon. Also, increase the penalties for illegally obtaining weapons - for example, killing someone with a stolen gun or a gun bought off the black market automatically mandates the death penalty instead of a prison sentence. As I said above, restrictions on criminals and the insane are fine but it's wrong when any sort of restriction is placed on responsible, regular, law-abiding citizens.

[James Davis]

I'm pretty undecided about capital punishment, but I think women should get an abortion if they want to. Then again, reason < religion, so no moar abortions!!!

Er...abortion isn't really a religious issue for me.

[Ayrrie]

I'm not sure I see a problem with the government providing money for people who are mentally or physically disabled to the point that they can't work a job that earns living wages. That strikes me as a form of welfare that I am okay with, so perhaps The Corporal's idea of cutting welfare 100% won't quite work. ;)

[Iron Wolf]

Corporal, I'm swiping your format. :D

Abortion- pro-choice
Capital punishment- for (You murder someone, game over)
Stem cell research- for
Gun control - limited against (have prospective owners pass a safety test and criminal check. Upping the ante on crimes with illegal weaponry is a cool idea, btw)
Corporate taxes- no opinion, I'm uninformed on the subject
Income tax- against raising further on any social class
Capital gains- see Corporate Taxes. No opinion due to uninformed status
Social Security- privatize individual accounts (Beats depending on an ever-growing workforce to outpace cost of living, although I am uneasy with that course of action)
Welfare- limited for (In the last 10 years, I've ended up relying on state aid for my family and myself for 6 years total, with my [chronologic] adult life covering the last 24 years. I have also gotten myself the Hell off that aid just as soon as I was capable. However, I have not forgotten the experiences of my teenage years when my dad lost a factory job and had to recycle shit found in garbage cans to keep from losing our home while there was a parking lot at the Welfare office full of aid recipients driving f*cking Cadillacs.)
National Defense- MOAR!!! (I also approve of gays in the military and women in the combat zone performing combat roles. While in a Marine infantry company, I have met a number of uniformed women that I would have trusted with my back and a loaded weapon long before some of the men I dealt with. And last time I checked, gays are capable of being professional bullet stoppers with the same efficiency as straights. Homophobes, please get over it.)
Iraq- completely out when the job is done
Torture- none (By the same token, neither do I want imprisoned suspected terrorists recieving US Constitutional protections. Last time I checked, the foreign nationals were NOT US citizens. Geneva Convention rights works for me)
Iran, Syria, China, Russia, North Korea, and other bad guys- Deal with as necessary.
Education - Equal education for all (nothing more or less. Give every kid an equal chance to succeed; but also, not every kid has the potential to be a rocket scientist. Some ARE going to end up asking "Do you want fries with that?" Free will and self-determination are a bitch like that sometimes)
Immigration - Enforce the current laws (If you're here illegally, don't expect sympathy from me when you're finally caught and getting a one-way ride back to where you came from. You broke my country's laws to get here, are competing with my fellow citizens for badly needed jobs, and expect me to accept you with open arms??? Give the Border Patrol authorisation to shoot to kill. I'll cheerfully accept you as a member of the community if you are here on US soil legally)
Space - Slow & sustainable (race with China and risk how many more millions of dollars on an expedition that crashes on the planet surface because someone didn't convert centimeters to inches????)

There ya have it. I'm a conservative Hippy. Shall we throw illegal drugs, drug dealers, and assisted suicide into the mix while we're at it? ;) Ya know, why not. :D

Illegal drug use- Medicinal use of pot ftw! (If it helps ease a dying cancer patients' last days, why the Hell not? Like they're going to get addicted?!?!?!?!)
Drug dealers- Enforce the current laws (and up the ante for repeat offenders. There's plenty more space in the deserts of Utah, Nevada, and Arizona for prisons. Alaska has plenty of uninhabited space too, for that matter)
Assisted suicide- for (had a former mother in law that had lung cancer. I would spare anyone who did not want to go through that kind of painful suffering and would prefer to die with some of their dignity left.)

[IronsightSniper]

Well since I suck at politics, I think the least I can do is state my positions.

Abortion- pro-choice
Capital punishment- for - smite them with the fury of a RPG
Stem cell research- for - We are at the point in scientific development where the only thing stopping us is morality. I say we go forward and research!
Gun control - limited against - I love guns but I know there are bitches out there that don't properly treat them right and fuck everything up for us.
Corporate taxes- Take from the rich, give it to the poor...companies. For example, tax Microsoft more, and give some of that to Joe the Plumber.
Income tax- Tax the richest a bit more since most don't mind, and tax the poorer less.
Capital gains- wtf is that
Social Security- wtf is that
Welfare- Just enough money for cheap food, water, basic comfort, living quarters, education/job.
National Defense- We spend a lot on Defense but we need to spend more. Especially new weapons. The M4 is great and all but when you're the biggest in the hood, no one is going to fight you in a field or forest, where the M4 does the best, they're gonna hide in buildings and ambush you, urban environments, so I say we develop America's AK-47 and give it to all the damn Infantry.
Iraq- Cut spending on them, they have a fucking 80 billion dollar surplus, tell them, "Hey motherfuckers, we're not buying every thing for yall, start paying for your own dinner". Also, move troops in Iraq to Afghanistan.
Torture- I would love to see a dude beating the shit out of people to get information.
Iran, Syria, China, Russia, North Korea, and other bad guys- Complete fucking trade sanctions. Which means nothing from us, goes to them, and vice versa. China gets about 20% of their Income from Services and Manufacturing, most of those things they produce, goes to us, if we block it off, they suffer, and we prosper. Unemployment rates are high here, so those jobs can always go here, and welfare can put them in those jobs.
Education - We pour more money into this. It's basically a long term investment. It's like a Sled. You put money in now. And you get a big payment later.
Immigration - Another thing we can do about our unemployment rate. We train those unemployed, give them a Shotgun and radio, and tell them to stand guard in our new border wall. Immigrants can come as they please, but they will all be checked. If they have drugs or anything illegal, give them gas and tell them to GTFO. People trying to jump our borders will be stopped, and shown their way to a Immigration place, where they will be legal immigrants.
Space - The next fucking frontier. Spend money on this also.
Illegal drug use- Ban every drug except Weed. Weed is the only save drug. Weed will be legalized, and we shall start hiring Weed Growers and Dealers to produce and market the weed. These places, of course, will be placed miles away from public places, like schools, libraries, etc. There will also be a mandatory minimum price per ounce of weed, lets say, $40 per ounce, and there will also be a good sized tax on growing, distributing, and buying weed, lets say 20%.
Drug dealers- Read above.
Assisted suicide- For. Simple.

[bigdaddychacha]

Abortion - Pro-abortion. :D
Capital punishment - Against.
Stem cell research - For. My grandfather died of Parkinson's Disease almost 3 years ago, I'm not budging on this one.
Gun control - Against, and I don't much care for classes either. I have a gun (in America) and haven't had any classes or training, but I know damn-well how to go about things without hurting myself or innocents.
Corporate taxes - I'm gonna paraphrase the beloved patron-saint of the Conservative movement, Sarah Palin, here and say, "Tax-tax-tax!!"
Income tax - Progressive income tax.
Capital gains - Tax 'em.
Social Security - Needs to be fixed, but we've gotta have it.
Welfare - We've gotta have it. When Welfare disappears, watch for an ever-worsening rash of nationwide violent crime, starvation and deprivation, drug/alcohol abuse explosion, and economic/racial disparities that will rend this country.
National Defense - We don't need a missile shield when our biggest threat is civilians with box cutters on planes or 3rd world rebels with AKs, IEDs, and RPGs. We don't need to be in Iraq to stop Iraqi terrorists from hitting the American homeland, I can't fathom how that falsehood ever got perpetuated.
Iraq - Obviously we're going to have to leave some bases there and maintain a small presence just as we have in most other countries we've defeated since 1945, but coalition soldiers either need to have an everyday presence on the street to be seen as part of the landscape, or they need to be out of sight altogether. They can't be targets that come bounding out of the Green Zone in Hummers periodically for the civillians to be shocked by and for the rebels to zone in on.
Torture - Ain't this America?!? Torture is bad, m'kay?
Iran - Deescalate.
Syria - Start talking again.
China - I thought they were going to get rich off of us, but it seems like they are suffering a bit in the worldwide economic downturn, too. We obviously need them as much if not more then they need us, so we've got to keep working with them, while never letting up on our demands for improved human rights, once we get our own human rights affairs in order so that we are in a position to be righteously indignant about that kind of thing again.
Russia - Former Soviet states need to be protected, especially when they've rubbed our back in Iraq. Russia needs to GTFO of Chechnya. If Russia wants to continue to challenge America after America has gotten its other priorities straight and if they want to bring the Cold War back after we've deescalated in Iraq and righted our economy, we can still show them who the World's superpower is. But it shouldn't come to that, after all the help we gave them in the 1990s.
North Korea - We could wipe the floor with North Korea except for one unalterable fact: North Korea can absolutely destory Seoul, South Korea the second things pop off, killing millions of the population, the economic headquarters of everything, and basically the backbone of the country. Japan and the rest of Korea is also threatened, to a slightly lesser degree. I'm afraid we're going to have to wait for this stroke or whatever it is to work its magic on Kim Jong Il and hope that the next leader is some sort of a North Korean Gorbachev.
and other bad guys - This is way too broad to respond to. Also, I think responding to Iran/Syria/China/Russia/North Korea all in one blanket statment is dangerously simplistic.
Education - Kill government funding of private/religious schools, put it all back into public. Completely restructure existing History Departments into World History focuses rather than Americacentric Blind Patriotism Inspiring Cheerleading Sessions that actually handicap you when you try to study history at a college level.
Immigration - Err on the side of mercy and find a way to make the economy accomodate them. Encourage birth control in Catholic-dominated neighbor Mexico.
Space - A lot of good intangible biproducts have come from the space race (microwave dinners, Tang anyone?) so we can't stop it completely, but until we get the world economy back in sync, a space budget is going to have to be on the back burner. You guys know that until sometime like 2011 or 2015 or something, America won't have any space-safe shuttles left to get our astronauts into orbit and there are no plans to build any before then and that we will be dependent on Russian shuttles to get our guys up there? And that Russia probably isn't going to do that for us because we oppossed them on the Georgia invasion? Yeah, the American space program is in serious short term trouble, already, and there isn't much of a damn thing we can do about it.
Illegal drug use - Marijuana=Legal. Decriminalization for most of the rest. It's a public health issue, not a crime.
Drug dealers - What else did they do? Meth labs have got to go, and crack dens and things like that, but it really depends on which type of drug/style of dealing you're talking about here.
Assisted suicide - For it. Everyone has a right to die with dignity, even if the state doesn't recognize it.

[IronsightSniper]

Also, I just did some calculations, and according to some old(2003) survey I found, approximately 3.1 Million Americans smoke Marijuana daily. If my retarded plan were to be put in place, with dealers selling at $40 per ounce, if every one of those 3.1 million people bought only 1 ounce a day for everyday of the year, Marijuana would be a $45,260,000,000 Yearly industry just from the Purchase of it, not including Production and Distribution. If taxes were as high as I proposed of 20% for Producing, Distributing, and Purchasing Marijuana, our Government could benefit a bare minimum of $9,052,000,000 a year. That could go to many things like schools, research, etc.

Now lets say every one of those 3.1 Million Americans smoke Marijuana 3 times a day using 3 ounces. Marijuana would be a $135,780,000,000 Yearly Industry just from purchase of it. $27,156,000,000 of that 135 billion could go towards many things like schools and research.

Now lets be a bit crazier. Lets say a single Marijuana Production Company can produce 9,300,000 ounces a day(enough for 3 ounces for each Daily Marijuana Smoker) a year. We can mandate price per ounce of buying Marijuana from a Producer would be $20, giving the Distributor a $20 initial profit per ounce. If the taxes for that were 20%, the Government can get $4 per ounce from both the Producer and the Distributor. So basically, we can get $8 per ounce already. Now we add the consumer. He buys an ounce of weed for $40. He gets taxed $8. The Distributor also gets taxed with $8. So, after all of this, we can get $24 from each ounce of weed. If my calculations are right, Marijuana has the potential to be a $407,340,000,000 yearly industry, and the Government can tax about $81,468,000,000 from this.

For some reason, I don't think my calculations are right.

[bigdaddychacha]

Also, I just did some calculations, and according to some old(2003) survey I found, approximately 3.1 Million Americans smoke Marijuana daily. If my retarded plan were to be put in place, with dealers selling at $40 per ounce, if every one of those 3.1 million people bought only 1 ounce a day for everyday of the year, Marijuana would be a $45,260,000,000 Yearly industry just from the Purchase of it, not including Production and Distribution. If taxes were as high as I proposed of 20% for Producing, Distributing, and Purchasing Marijuana, our Government could benefit a bare minimum of $9,052,000,000 a year. That could go to many things like schools, research, etc.

Now lets say every one of those 3.1 Million Americans smoke Marijuana 3 times a day using 3 ounces. Marijuana would be a $135,780,000,000 Yearly Industry just from purchase of it. $27,156,000,000 of that 135 billion could go towards many things like schools and research.

Now lets be a bit crazier. Lets say a single Marijuana Production Company can produce 9,300,000 ounces a day(enough for 3 ounces for each Daily Marijuana Smoker) a year. We can mandate price per ounce of buying Marijuana from a Producer would be $20, giving the Distributor a $20 initial profit per ounce. If the taxes for that were 20%, the Government can get $4 per ounce from both the Producer and the Distributor. So basically, we can get $8 per ounce already. Now we add the consumer. He buys an ounce of weed for $40. He gets taxed $8. The Distributor also gets taxed with $8. So, after all of this, we can get $24 from each ounce of weed. If my calculations are right, Marijuana has the potential to be a $407,340,000,000 yearly industry, and the Government can tax about $81,468,000,000 from this.

For some reason, I don't think my calculations are right.For some reason, I think you could probably be arrested just because you've been thinking about it this much! :P

[IronsightSniper]

Think about it.
3.1 Million Americans smoking 3 Ounces of Pot daily for a year can give the U.S. $81 Billion dollars. What can that do?

[Iron Wolf]

Also think of the side benefits of this. You get the munchies after smoking pot, right? McDonalds, Taco Bell, Burger King, and Frito-Lays stand to make an awesome killing in this! :D

[IronsightSniper]

Hell yeah!
Nuttin' like an Economic stimulus like legalizing Marijuana.

[Melidan]

Immigration - build a fence, mobilize National Guard units, allow shoot-to-kill orders for known fugitives and drug runners, ramp up enforcement of labor laws, and make it easier for people to legally enter the U.S. (with the stipulation that people must be able to speak passable English and know the principles upon which this country was founded)

THIS^ to the million'th percent. Yes, not only be able to speak english but also be 100% willing to be assimilated as Americans.

Idk why i'm iffy about capital punishment. It's weird, im almost more in favor of capital punishment for treason and insurrection then for murder. Sometimes I ask myself where does the government get the right to kill someone, except if that person tried to overthrow the government. Like all these American born terrorist fucks, they should be executed immediately.

Maybe the decision on capital punishment should be left to the victims family.. Although, I will concede that America was a much better (and safer) place when criminals were executed in the public square shortly after being convicted.

Edit: And yes, the drug war is the biggest waste of time and money.. ever. I used to work as a civilian officer for a police department and I knew a ton of cops, none of them thought pot should be illegal. I remember frequently that if they caught someone with weed, they would just throw it out and send them on their way.

[leninrocks244]

Er...abortion isn't really a religious issue for me.

Now come on. Don't lie. We all know it's your Christian side that's against it.

;)

[leninrocks244]

Abortion- pro-choice

Capital punishment- Still pending on it

Stem cell research- for

Gun control - limited against (have prospective owners pass a safety test and criminal check. Upping the ante on crimes with illegal weaponry is a cool idea, btw)

Corporate taxes- Tax the holy fuck out of those bastards.

Income tax- against raising it on the middle and lower class

Capital gains- see Corporate Taxes.

Social Security- Try to improve it.

Welfare- For those who desperately need it. For the unemployed, the state should find new work for them so they can go back to making an income instead of sucking up welfare.

National Defense- More. If we make the country a fortress, then every hillbilly small town can stfu about Osama bombing Hickville, U.S.A. And we should start letting gays into the armed forces. The more soldiers, the better. And why should they be rejected to serve their country because of their sexual orientation?

Iraq- GTFO now.

Torture- None. Like, at all.

Iran, Syria, China, Russia, North Korea, and other bad guys- Peaceful diplomacy instead of pig-headed ignorance. Words are much better than bombs.

Education - Free education for everybody who wants it. Why should we have to pay for an inalienable right that everybody deserves?

Immigration - While I'm not a Nationalist, I don't support those who aren't legal residents of this country to soak up all of our welfare. But if they have a green card or are citizens, they can stay. And I don't give a fuck about the hundreds of teenagers who come knocking on my door saying that they can't have the shitty jobs that nobody else wants to do.

Space - Before we start sending shit into space, we should study it more before we endanger the lives of men and women.

Illegal drug use- Legalize that shit, yo..... to a certain degree. Mary Jane should be legalized, but I'm not so sure about everything else.

Drug dealers- To me, drug pushers are the lowest of the lowest capitalist scum. They feed off of the pain of others. Scum like this must be dealt with accordingly.

Assisted suicide- For.

[James Davis]

Now come on. Don't lie. We all know it's your Christian side that's against it.

;)

The religious right may be against it, but that's not why I'm against it. I view the unborn as being fully human. (genetically human + alive and growing = human being) In my mind, and I'm not joking, abortion has the human toll of a 9/11 attack every day.

Abortion isn't about God, or politics, it's about human rights.

[Melidan]

The religious right may be against it, but that's not why I'm against it. I view the unborn as being fully human. (genetically human + alive and growing = human being) In my mind, and I'm not joking, abortion has the human toll of a 9/11 attack every day.

Abortion isn't about God, or politics, it's about human rights.

This^

The best arguments I have heard against abortion have all been scientific, not religious. Case in point, the argument against partial birth abortion by the doctor who created the procedure, W. Martin Haskell.

[tom the pit leader]

I have an idea for abortion that I think will make everyone happy. There are almost no people anywhere in the world who like abortions unto themselves. That is to say that no-one likes that there are people who ligitamatly want/need an abortion.

However, no amount of legislation or protests or shutting down abortion clinics is going to do anything to the real number of abortions happening. Abortions didn't start after Roe vrs. Wade, they just became leagal. The only thing overturning Roe would do is make women get dangerous abortions that can cripple or kill the mother and still abort the featus.

That being said, that doesn't mean that there isn't anything we can do to stop women from needing abortions. The humane way to stop aids with gay men and heroin addicts was to give them condoms and clean needles. I don't endores promisusus sex and I really don't endorse heroin, but I would rather pay 2 bucks to stop one of them from getting aids than to pay thousands of dollars a year to treat them.


In a simalr way, I would say that's how we should fight abortions. Not to be racisits or classists, but generaly speaking, poor people in inner cities need abortions more than rich people, not counting rape/incest. Population control is the only real way to fight poverty, but because simply rounding up people and deporting/killing them isn't pratical/acceptable, the way to do that is for them to have fewer kids. That will mean teaching sex ed that acctually teaches kids how to not have babies, with condoms. You may not like condoms at a religious level, but I would be hard pressed to find someone who liked the abortion that would come from the lack of that condom more. When people have families that they can mannage, they don't need abortions, and their standard of living goes up. Over time, fewer families would be in a situation that leads to having babies out of wedlock, and thus eliminating the need for abortions.

Fighting a social ill is like fighting an insurgent army. If you can meet it in a real battle, it doesn't stand a chance, but when it is forced out of the public eye is can thrive and grow, and we have little chance to fight it.

[leninrocks244]

The religious right may be against it, but that's not why I'm against it. I view the unborn as being fully human. (genetically human + alive and growing = human being) In my mind, and I'm not joking, abortion has the human toll of a 9/11 attack every day.

Abortion isn't about God, or politics, it's about human rights.

It find it hilarious that the political right cares more about fetuses than actual people. It's not a full human being, since it's not fully developed nor is it even born yet. It's like calling tadpoles frogs because they have frog DNA and they grow. And overpopulation is a big concept. If more children are born, the ghettos and inner cities will become more overcrowded. Basically, it's like what Tommyboy said.

[leninrocks244]

. Case in point, the argument against partial birth abortion by the doctor who created the procedure, W. Martin Haskell.

Irony at its finest.

[James Davis]

It find it hilarious that the political right cares more about fetuses than actual people. It's not a full human being, since it's not fully developed nor is it even born yet. It's like calling tadpoles frogs because they have frog DNA and they grow. And overpopulation is a big concept. If more children are born, the ghettos and inner cities will become more overcrowded. Basically, it's like what Tommyboy said.

Who are you to determine who gets human rights? It's not born yet? So two inches of flesh makes the difference between human and not human? It's not developed? Neither are newborn babies, neither are the mentally incompetent, and neither are the physically disfigured! Should we just kill them too? Don't delude yourself, you're "pro-choice," the ultimate euphemism mankind has ever conceived, out of political convenience, rather than rational thought.

[The Corporal]

THIS^ to the million'th percent. Yes, not only be able to speak english but also be 100% willing to be assimilated as Americans.

Honestly, I stole some of that from Ted Nugent. I just finished reading the book.... :D

Illegal drug use - Legalize and tax. Prison/hard labor for people who abuse it to the point of hurting people around them (and instant executions for drunk/stoned/influenced drivers who kill people while high).

Drug dealers - If they're small time thugs, let 'em off with community service. If we catch one of the big dogs, though, put them in a labor camp until they wither and die.

Assisted suicide - For. Drifting off into a morphine-induced sleep is better than slowly suffocating from emphysema, for example.

Hell, I thought of a new one...sorry everybody...

Prison reform - Too often, prisons are like resort communities. Cable television, food ordered out from McDonald's (I can't remember when I first heard about that), getting paid to do things....it's awful. Joe Arpaio has the right idea - shitty food, pink lace panties, and plenty of hard labor. Prison is not meant to be a vacation, it's meant to be punishment for your crimes. I approve of G.E.D. and college-level education programs, but your primary activities while in prison should not be lifting weights and having other inmates toss your salad for drugs...

[tom the pit leader]

Honestly, I stole some of that from Ted Nugent. I just finished reading the book.... :D

Illegal drug use - Legalize and tax. Prison/hard labor for people who abuse it to the point of hurting people around them (and instant executions for drunk/stoned/influenced drivers who kill people while high).

Drug dealers - If they're small time thugs, let 'em off with community service. If we catch one of the big dogs, though, put them in a labor camp until they wither and die.

Assisted suicide - For. Drifting off into a morphine-induced sleep is better than slowly suffocating from emphysema, for example.

Hell, I thought of a new one...sorry everybody...

Prison reform - Too often, prisons are like resort communities. Cable television, food ordered out from McDonald's (I can't remember when I first heard about that), getting paid to do things....it's awful. Joe Arpaio has the right idea - shitty food, pink lace panties, and plenty of hard labor. Prison is not meant to be a vacation, it's meant to be punishment for your crimes. I approve of G.E.D. and college-level education programs, but your primary activities while in prison should not be lifting weights and having other inmates toss your salad for drugs...


I agree with most of this. I hate our drug policies, because they don't work and are really expensive. If someone gets 10 years for possiession, we just paid $600k and took someone out of the workforce.

But on the big time people. I would rather have the mob, because if the mob would work with the US instead of against it, they could be a powerful tool to elimiate crime and keep drugs out of the hands of kids. The bosses want to stay rich, so they have no reason not to be regular execs.

Assisted suicide- all for it, in fact, I wish all sucides were assisted because odds are many people who do commit suicde wouldn't if there was someone there, and suicide is something that needs to be done right.

Prison reform- it shouldn't be a walk in the park. I think it should be hard work, building public works and the like, but also teach skills so that when they get out, they don't commit a crime of poverty and can reinegrate because we have better things to do with our money than pay for people to be in jail.

[leninrocks244]

Who are you to determine who gets human rights? It's not born yet? So two inches of flesh makes the difference between human and not human? It's not developed? Neither are newborn babies, neither are the mentally incompetent, and neither are the physically disfigured! Should we just kill them too? Don't delude yourself, you're "pro-choice," the ultimate euphemism mankind has ever conceived, out of political convenience, rather than rational thought.

I still find it hilarious how even through you have strong feelings about saving fetuses but you hate welfare. That's kind of contradicting if you ask me. Basically, what I interpret your views as "save fetuses, but once you're 18, fuck off and stop leeching off of my welfare.". Why should we contribute to overpopulation? And on your part, why should we give birth to more children who are going to suck up your welfare dollars one day in the future?

[James Davis]

I still find it hilarious how even through you have strong feelings about saving fetuses but you hate welfare. That's kind of contradicting if you ask me. Basically, what I interpret your views as "save fetuses, but once you're 18, fuck off and stop leeching off of my welfare.". Why should we contribute to overpopulation? And on your part, why should we give birth to more children who are going to suck up your welfare dollars one day in the future?

The vast majority of people aren't on welfare, and I can guarantee you that no child of mine will ever be. I don't have a problem with the government providing food for the genuinely needy.

What I DO have a problem with is the countless thousands who could easily have a job, but instead want to sit on their asses all day and wait for the government check to arrive each month. That kind of lifestyle is utterly un-American, and to ask hard working people to prop up that dead weight is completely ridiculous.

Also, contraception generally works pretty well with the whole "overpopulation" thing. Even if it didn't, the argument that we should just kill off the surplus babies to prevent overpopulation sounds a little barbaric.

[leninrocks244]

The vast majority of people aren't on welfare, and I can guarantee you that no child of mine will ever be. I don't have a problem with the government providing food for the genuinely needy.

What I DO have a problem with is the countless thousands who could easily have a job, but instead want to sit on their asses all day and wait for the government check to arrive each month. That kind of lifestyle is utterly un-American, and to ask hard working people to prop up that dead weight is completely ridiculous.

Also, contraception generally works pretty well with the whole "overpopulation" thing. Even if it didn't, the argument that we should just kill off the surplus babies to prevent overpopulation sounds a little barbaric.

That's what I mean by people being on welfare, but what you described seems to me is the American dream of today's generation, being not having to work but still getting paid.

It does sound barbaric, but I'd rather sacrifice a fer fetuses than countless millions dying from starvation.

[Dark Force]

That's what I mean by people being on welfare, but what you described seems to me is the American dream of today's generation, being not having to work but still getting paid.

It does sound barbaric, but I'd rather sacrifice a fer fetuses than countless millions dying from starvation.

Only for the lazy people who don't amount to anything. The american dream is still the same: work hard and enjoy the fruits of your labor. The problem is there are people in the government telling us that is is ok to not try get a job, we'll feed you, pay your bills, buy your TV and Cable internet. Whats the cost? Those of us Americans that want to do something with their lives are being penalized for trying to succeed. This can't be more evident than BO's "Redistribute the Wealth" idea.

Now, as for the food issue. With obesity being such a problem in the US, I don't think starvation is really an issue. The United States is the Bread Basket of the world. But if it ever did come down to that, why not kill off the lazy Sh*ts who don't do anything instead of innocent children who haven't done anything wrong?

[Villalba]

Abortion-pro choice

Stem cell research-for

Capital Punishment-against, a murderer should spent his life in jail, instead of giving them a free get out of jail card.

Guns- with, i want too feel the power of Texas, yeeehaww.

Corporate taxes- should be cut by a 100% Corporations make jobs, and the only reason they sent jobs overseas its because places like Hong Kong have very low Income and corporate tax rates.

Income tax- raise it on the poor, keep it the same on the middle, and lower it on the rich. J/K. Lower it on the middle class only. Raise it by 1% on high class, keep it the same on the poor.

Capital gains-lower capital gains taxes.

Social Security-keep it where it is.

Welfare-increase welfare benefits for retirees, and veterans. Eliminate it for street bums.

National Defense-Lower it. Sell guns to people, so people can defend themselves.

Iraq-stay in Iraq, suck the oil out, then get out ounce there is no more oil too suck at.

Torture-legalize it, what use is too keep prisioners in jail, if they don't learn their lessons.

Education-Community service for those that want to receive financial aid = Greatest idea ever. And or, free college education, believe it or not, the govt waste more taxes on giving financial aid. Because not every kid is accounted to be successfull.

Space program-Build satellites with weapons installed on it. Not just any weapons but the real deal, where you can launch a laser from space, into a terrorist camp, such as Hammas, and destroyed it, without sacrificing troops.

Immigration-Invade cuba invade Mexico, there your done.


If the torture thing doesn't work, then why not pushed for slave labor for convicted felons. Make them pay for their sentance, by having them do heavy manual labor, like building bridges, cannals, roads, all for cheap without the expense of tax payers money.

China-for me they are the greatest people in all of Asia, America owns China huge sums of money and i just cracked up laughing. China is the prove of how pure capitalism works.

Russia-I admire Putin.

Iran-Sell them Uranium, we could make a new friend in the Middle East.

North Korea-boy do i want one of those nukes. Uhm talks with China and south Korea, finish the unfinished job, bomb Kim Jong's palace, make sure he is dead, and say it was some weird ass terrorist attack.

Drugs-privatize drugs. We should be encouraging this.

[leninrocks244]

Only for the lazy people who don't amount to anything. The american dream is still the same: work hard and enjoy the fruits of your labor. The problem is there are people in the government telling us that is is ok to not try get a job, we'll feed you, pay your bills, buy your TV and Cable internet. Whats the cost? Those of us Americans that want to do something with their lives are being penalized for trying to succeed. This can't be more evident than BO's "Redistribute the Wealth" idea.

Now, as for the food issue. With obesity being such a problem in the US, I don't think starvation is really an issue. The United States is the Bread Basket of the world. But if it ever did come down to that, why not kill off the lazy Sh*ts who don't do anything instead of innocent children who haven't done anything wrong?

No, it's pretty much lay around the house and don't do shit. Why do you think people work hard? In order to lay around the house and don't do shit. That's what they dream of. Feed you and pay your bills, yeah. TV and Internet..... no. I highly doubt the government provides welfare for people to keep their internet and cable.

Not right now, it isn't. But it'll come to that point where the world is going to start becoming more overpopulated. The funny thing is that fetuses aren't even children. They're not fully developed humans.

[leninrocks244]

Honestly, I stole some of that from Ted Nugent. I just finished reading the book.... :D

Illegal drug use - Legalize and tax. Prison/hard labor for people who abuse it to the point of hurting people around them (and instant executions for drunk/stoned/influenced drivers who kill people while high).

Drug dealers - If they're small time thugs, let 'em off with community service. If we catch one of the big dogs, though, put them in a labor camp until they wither and die.

Assisted suicide - For. Drifting off into a morphine-induced sleep is better than slowly suffocating from emphysema, for example.

Hell, I thought of a new one...sorry everybody...

Prison reform - Too often, prisons are like resort communities. Cable television, food ordered out from McDonald's (I can't remember when I first heard about that), getting paid to do things....it's awful. Joe Arpaio has the right idea - shitty food, pink lace panties, and plenty of hard labor. Prison is not meant to be a vacation, it's meant to be punishment for your crimes. I approve of G.E.D. and college-level education programs, but your primary activities while in prison should not be lifting weights and having other inmates toss your salad for drugs...

Holy shit. More things we agree on.

[tom the pit leader]

Holy shit. More things we agree on.

I think this thread needs a lock before the universe ends.

[leninrocks244]

I think this thread needs a lock before the universe ends.

rofl

[Dark Force]

No, it's pretty much lay around the house and don't do shit. Why do you think people work hard? In order to lay around the house and don't do shit. That's what they dream of. Feed you and pay your bills, yeah. TV and Internet..... no. I highly doubt the government provides welfare for people to keep their internet and cable.

Not right now, it isn't. But it'll come to that point where the world is going to start becoming more overpopulated. The funny thing is that fetuses aren't even children. They're not fully developed humans.
Not really. Study some psychology some time. Work gives normal people a sense of accomplishment because they not only can sit back at the end of the day and say "I did something" but also get paid and raises for working hard. I have several examples for evidence of this I could give.

You don't know very many lower class families do you? I know people who are unemployed, and don't look for a job. They don't want to do it because the government sends them enough money to, YES, sit and watch cable and surf the web all day and still have money for cigarettes. I know the government pays for this, they brag about it.

Fetuses are not children?!? Hmm... I hope you weren't a pre-mature birth then. because then technically you weren't human either according to your logic. By the second trimester, "fetuses" look like a fully formed baby and are so anatomically. After 4 weeks, the fetus has a heartbeat and reacts to outside stimuli. These facts alone make pre-born babies more human then you ever will be. When did they get the choice if they wanted to live?

[James Davis]

To tack on to what DF said:

Newborn babies aren't fully developed human beings, neither are toddlers, or tweens, or most people under 18 for that matter. Can we kill them? I can think of at least one 16 year old kid I wouldn't mind taking an axe to atm....

You're logic totally falls apart when put to scrutiny. When dealing with human life, you can't just guess where it starts. It is clear that you just drew the line of what is human and what is not where it is politically convenient for you.






*The axe thing is a joke, no death threat intended.

[The Corporal]

I think this thread needs a lock before the universe ends.

:lol: I didn't know that me and lenin agreeing on things was as Earth-shattering as posting pictures of Ayrrie is...wow. :)

To better explain my view on abortion (and to offer an alternative to the religious and hard-line pro-choice arguments), I think that if the fetus is developed enough to survive on its own outside the womb without aid of breathing apparatus/feeding tubes/etc., it should be delivered normally and put up for adoption. There are countless families who are unable to have children or would like more children but have to pay $30,000-$100,000 to adopt children from Asia, Africa, and Eastern Europe - overpopulation is not a problem in this country, though places like India and China are at that point. In general, the able-to-survive-without-machines criterion applies to fetuses in the third trimester; before that, it's up to the parents.

One somewhat anti-choice stipulation I'd like to see is that people on the government dole should not be allowed to pump out more kids. If you can't hold down a job, how can you be expected to properly provide for a child (or two, or three, etc.)? The average cost to raise a child from birth to adulthood is something like $400,000, an average of over $21,000 a year. As much as I hate to say the term "government-mandated abortions" I feel that people on welfare should be looking for jobs, not looking for pregnancy tests. At the very least, find a job (or make one) that you can work from home, sitting in your bathrobe, drinking beer, watching Oprah all day. Everybody has a skill that is useful, even if that skill consists of making appearances on Jerry Springer. ;)

[Villalba]

What corporal said. Many girls just get their asses pregnant, but they cannot provide a good and healthy life to the baby. Some might even abandon them.

Use condoms, not every sperm is sacred, not every sperm is great, if a sperm is wasted, don't give it a rats ass.

[leninrocks244]

To tack on to what DF said:

Newborn babies aren't fully developed human beings, neither are toddlers, or tweens, or most people under 18 for that matter. Can we kill them? I can think of at least one 16 year old kid I wouldn't mind taking an axe to atm....

You're logic totally falls apart when put to scrutiny. When dealing with human life, you can't just guess where it starts. It is clear that you just drew the line of what is human and what is not where it is politically convenient for you.





*The axe thing is a joke, no death threat intended.

By fully developed, I mean that toddlers and tweens have fully, functional organs. Fetuses, however, do not. It's like saying a tadpole is a frog. In conclusion, if you don't like abortions, don't get one.

[leninrocks244]

Not really. Study some psychology some time. Work gives normal people a sense of accomplishment because they not only can sit back at the end of the day and say "I did something" but also get paid and raises for working hard. I have several examples for evidence of this I could give.

You don't know very many lower class families do you? I know people who are unemployed, and don't look for a job. They don't want to do it because the government sends them enough money to, YES, sit and watch cable and surf the web all day and still have money for cigarettes. I know the government pays for this, they brag about it.

Fetuses are not children?!? Hmm... I hope you weren't a pre-mature birth then. because then technically you weren't human either according to your logic. By the second trimester, "fetuses" look like a fully formed baby and are so anatomically. After 4 weeks, the fetus has a heartbeat and reacts to outside stimuli. These facts alone make pre-born babies more human then you ever will be. When did they get the choice if they wanted to live?

Yeah, but do you think most Americans are happy with their work? Secondly, you're forgetting why most people work. So they can have enough money to sit on their asses all day and do nothing in their future. That's the true American dream. I go to a school on the Southwest side of Chicago, so naturally I would know alot of lower class families. They have no internet or cable. Phone service is basically the only thing they can pay for without government help.

Yeah, that's why I don't support abortions after the second trimester. Shit, I should've made this a little bit more clear before I started to get flamed. And I'm sorry, but how does the fact that they respond to outside stimuli and that they have a heartbeat make them more human than me? You're argument is now void because of that statement.

[Ayrrie]

I'm pretty sure that my dream as an American is to make my own money and living so that people can back the fuck off and stay out of my life because I don't depend on them for anything.

That's just me, though.

[Dark Force]

Yeah, but do you think most Americans are happy with their work? Secondly, you're forgetting why most people work. So they can have enough money to sit on their asses all day and do nothing in their future. That's the true American dream. I go to a school on the Southwest side of Chicago, so naturally I would know alot of lower class families. They have no internet or cable. Phone service is basically the only thing they can pay for without government help.
If your working at something you don't like, thats your own fault. You have the choice to take the job or not. If you don't like it look for something you do like. The only reason you should ever have a job you hate is because you absolutely have no other alternatives available. Not getting a job shouldn't be an option.
Soo... Those of us that want to succeed have to pay for your lazy asses? Screw that, if you want to eat, get a job. There is no reason the rest of society should have to support another family other than their own. If they don't want to try to better themselves, then they can't complain. Whether it is education, race, religion, history, I don't care; pick yourselves up and make something of your life.

As for your "American dream," um, repeat? No, it's pretty much lay around the house and don't do shit. Why do you think people work hard? In order to lay around the house and don't do shit. That's what they dream of.
<snip>


I'm pretty sure that my dream as an American is to make my own money and living so that people can back the fuck off and stay out of my life because I don't depend on them for anything.

That's just me, though.

Thank you!

Moving on:
Yeah, that's why I don't support abortions after the second trimester. Shit, I should've made this a little bit more clear before I started to get flamed. And I'm sorry, but how does the fact that they respond to outside stimuli and that they have a heartbeat make them more human than me? You're argument is now void because of that statement.
Never mind that last statement, it was over your head. Let me ask you this: If you were blown up next to a heard of cows and they went in and gathered all the pieces together, how would they sort out your remains from the cattle? DNA. Your DNA is what identifies you as human. Therefore, if a fetus has a complete set of DNA at conception, then it is a human. There is no ifs, and, or buts about it. So yes, from a view other than a moral stand point, a scientific view: tadpoles are frogs, and fetuses are human. Try void scientific facts.

[leninrocks244]

delete'd!

[leninrocks244]

If your working at something you don't like, thats your own fault. You have the choice to take the job or not. If you don't like it look for something you do like. The only reason you should ever have a job you hate is because you absolutely have no other alternatives available. Not getting a job shouldn't be an option.

Soo... Those of us that want to succeed have to pay for your lazy asses? Screw that, if you want to eat, get a job. There is no reason the rest of society should have to support another family other than their own. If they don't want to try to better themselves, then they can't complain. Whether it is education, race, religion, history, I don't care; pick yourselves up and make something of your life.

As for your "American dream," um, repeat?



Never mind that last statement, it was over your head. Let me ask you this: If you were blown up next to a heard of cows and they went in and gathered all the pieces together, how would they sort out your remains from the cattle? DNA. Your DNA is what identifies you as human. Therefore, if a fetus has a complete set of DNA at conception, then it is a human. There is no ifs, and, or buts about it. So yes, from a view other than a moral stand point, a scientific view: tadpoles are frogs, and fetuses are human. Try void scientific facts.

Not really. Everybody has a fantasy of what they truly want to be, but it ends up being something far from it just so they can make a buck. This isn't about welfare anyways, it's about what certain people define the American dream as. By the way, you're completely wrong in your analysis. When I say that people don't have to work anymore, I mean that those people are already rich enough to the point where they can live off of their life savings and not have to work. Working to not having to work in the future is the American dream.

Ok, so if fetuses are truly human, and anybody who doesn't think so is a complete retard, how come during Reagan's time (who was obviously pro-life) there were no fetuses counted on the US Census. They are indeed humans, but even a pro-life President doesn't put them on the Census by counting them as a part of the population.

[Assarax]

Were you brutally raped as a child? Seriously. Lighten up.

Oh dear fucking god, what the hell are you on leninrocks? :5dunce::5dunce::5dunce::5dunce:

I mean, isn't it everyone's dream to make their own living so they don't have to end up a 50 year old virgin living in his mother's basement and working at Burger King as the Assistant Night Shift Manager? I mean, unless that's YOUR dream lenin...

[Ayrrie]

Were you brutally raped as a child? Seriously. Lighten up.

I'd seriously reconsider how you speak to me in the future.

[leninrocks244]

I'd seriously reconsider how you speak to me in the future.

Were you? Seriously? There has to be some sort of explanation.

[leninrocks244]

Oh dear fucking god, what the hell are you on leninrocks? :5dunce::5dunce::5dunce::5dunce:

I mean, isn't it everyone's dream to make their own living so they don't have to end up a 50 year old virgin living in his mother's basement and working at Burger King as the Assistant Night Shift Manager?

Curiosity.

Pretty much, but most people would love to just live off of their own savings after a lifetime of work.

[Dark Force]

Were you brutally raped as a child? Seriously. Lighten up.
Ok, thats enough. Rape isn't something to joke about, I know someone who was. Besides, that falls into the same category as if I said:"Did your mom drop you on your head? Seriously, how stupid are you?" But I don't. Even if I want to on occasion...
Not really. Everybody has a fantasy of what they truly want to be, but it ends up being something far from it just so they can make a buck. This isn't about welfare anyways, it's about what certain people define the American dream as. By the way, you're completely wrong in your analysis. When I say that people don't have to work anymore, I mean that those people are already rich enough to the point where they can live off of their life savings and not have to work. Working to not having to work in the future is the American dream.
Actually, welfare is part of the problem, because we now have the lazy trying to live off of everyone else who is trying to live the American Dream. People are already rich enough to live off their life savings?!? Have you been looking at the credit crunch and the stock market lately? There are people who's entire 401k's have disappeared overnight, and others who are so far in debt that they'll never dig themselves out. And with the job market the way it is, a lot of people are happy to even have a job. Working so you don't have to work later is called retirement, not the American dream.

Ok, so if fetuses are truly human, and anybody who doesn't think so is a complete retard, how come during Reagan's time (who was obviously pro-life) there were no fetuses counted on the US Census. They are indeed humans, but even a pro-life President doesn't put them on the Census by counting them as a part of the population.
First off, I never said you were a retard. Don't put words in my mouth. Second, I said from a scientific point of view. Now, since you want to talk about according to politics, that is because according to the US Constitution you can be a US citizen by birth, not by conception, this is because it is a lot easier to prove you gave birth in the US than it is to say you got pregnant. You would need evidence of it, with birth you have hospital records. Can you imagine what you'd have to do to prove you got pregnant in the country? You'd need several witness's that are US citizens, and other proof. (Are you going to film yourself having sex and mail it to the government to prove your child was conceived here? :D ) This is why fetuses are not counted in the US census's report.

[leninrocks244]

Ok, thats enough. Rape isn't something to joke about, I know someone who was. Besides, that falls into the same category as if I said:"Did your mom drop you on your head? Seriously, how stupid are you?" But I don't. Even if I want to on occasion...

Actually, welfare is part of the problem, because we now have the lazy trying to live off of everyone else who is trying to live the American Dream. People are already rich enough to live off their life savings?!? Have you been looking at the credit crunch and the stock market lately? There are people who's entire 401k's have disappeared overnight, and others who are so far in debt that they'll never dig themselves out. And with the job market the way it is, a lot of people are happy to even have a job. Working so you don't have to work later is called retirement, not the American dream.


First off, I never said you were a retard. Don't put words in my mouth. Second, I said from a scientific point of view. Now, since you want to talk about according to politics, that is because according to the US Constitution you can be a US citizen by birth, not by conception, this is because it is a lot easier to prove you gave birth in the US than it is to say you got pregnant. You would need evidence of it, with birth you have hospital records. Can you imagine what you'd have to do to prove you got pregnant in the country? You'd need several witness's that are US citizens, and other proof. (Are you going to film yourself having sex and mail it to the government to prove your child was conceived here? :D ) This is why fetuses are not counted in the US census's report.

My fiance was raped before we met, which would have more of an effect on me since this is the girl I'm going to marry and I love her to death. And I wasn't joking. Seriously, I wasn't.

Retirement is basically the American dream. A dream is defined as a fantasy that you desire dearly. What do average people desire more than anything? To live off of their own life savings and not have to work. Go out and ask people if they would rather work hard or do nothing. But you're right, people are lucky to have a job, but it doesn't mean that they should like it or quit.

I never put words into your mouth nor did I say that you called me a retard. But they are humans nonetheless, so shouldn't they be counted on the Census? Fuck laziness, they're already US citizens because they're human and conceived in the US. And about the sex tape part, I think that would make alot of bureaucrats very happy (but also fucked up) men and women happy.

[Ayrrie]

I'd rather work than not work. I'd go stir crazy without working. I know a lot of retired people feel the same way.

[leninrocks244]

I'd rather work than not work. I'd go stir crazy without working. I know a lot of retired people feel the same way.

Well that's just your opinion, but on average I feel that many Americans would rather sit on their asses all day than work. As for retired people, that's exactly what Bingo nights and knitting clubs are for.

[The Arbiter]

Leninrocks244, you have a fiance at 16 years old?

[leninrocks244]

Leninrocks244, you have a fiance at 16 years old?

Didn't we go over this awhile ago?

[Assarax]

Didn't we go over this awhile ago?

No.

[Dark Force]

My fiance was raped before we met, which would have more of an effect on me since this is the girl I'm going to marry and I love her to death. And I wasn't joking. Seriously, I wasn't.

Retirement is basically the American dream. A dream is defined as a fantasy that you desire dearly. What do average people desire more than anything? To live off of their own life savings and not have to work. Go out and ask people if they would rather work hard or do nothing. But you're right, people are lucky to have a job, but it doesn't mean that they should like it or quit.

I never put words into your mouth nor did I say that you called me a retard. But they are humans nonetheless, so shouldn't they be counted on the Census? Fuck laziness, they're already US citizens because they're human and conceived in the US. And about the sex tape part, I think that would make alot of bureaucrats very happy (but also fucked up) men and women happy.
The point is they can't be on the census because their not citizens. The Constitution says when/how you can become a citizen and none of the options are "at conception" however, there is one that says "at birth" as long as you're in the US.

Well that's just your opinion, but on average I feel that many Americans would rather sit on their asses all day than work. As for retired people, that's exactly what Bingo nights and knitting clubs are for.
Actually, a lot of senior citizens are trying to get back in the workforce because they can't handle sitting around doing nothing. My grandmother is an excellent example of this. I will admit, sitting around and doing nothing is nice, but after a month of it, it gets old and I definitely feel the need to do something productive. Most people are this way, humans unconsciously (and some quite consciously) crave meaning, and work is one of the best ways to do so.

[Ayrrie]

Clearly I am superior to the average lazy fuckwit, then. None of them are getting any of my money.

[Assarax]

Actually, a lot of senior citizens are trying to get back in the workforce because they can't handle sitting around doing nothing. My grandmother is an excellent example of this. I will admit, sitting around and doing nothing is nice, but after a month of it, it gets old and I definitely feel the need to do something productive. Most people are this way, humans unconsciously (and some quite consciously) crave meaning, and work is one of the best ways to do so.

Also, most senior citizens worked from the time they were age 18 till they were 65 years old. I think a few months of well deserved sit-on-your-ass time is appropriate. And yes, a lot of seniors do try to get back into the work force, my grandfather was a prime example, after he retired, he worked part time for Hormel and played golf every Wednesday. Let's face it, pensions and social security don't exactly get you far in life. Even 10 years ago, let alone today. '

[leninrocks244]

Clearly I am superior to the average lazy fuckwit, then. None of them are getting any of my money.

No , I'm talking about people on welfare. I'm talking about people who dream about not having to work anymore in the future. Jesus, can nobody interpret what I'm trying to say?

[leninrocks244]

No.

It was mentioned in the really long flame war between me and Arbiter.

[leninrocks244]

The point is they can't be on the census because their not citizens. The Constitution says when/how you can become a citizen and none of the options are "at conception" however, there is one that says "at birth" as long as you're in the US.


Actually, a lot of senior citizens are trying to get back in the workforce because they can't handle sitting around doing nothing. My grandmother is an excellent example of this. I will admit, sitting around and doing nothing is nice, but after a month of it, it gets old and I definitely feel the need to do something productive. Most people are this way, humans unconsciously (and some quite consciously) crave meaning, and work is one of the best ways to do so.

But they're humans. And I'm not saying that this is in the Constitution or whatever, but if they're humans by your logic (even though they're not fully developed) shouldn't they be counted as citizens? After all, they are children.

I'll repeat what I said earlier. That's exactly what Bingo nights and knitting clubs are for.

[Assarax]

No retard, I'm talking about people on welfare. I'm talking about people who dream about not having to work anymore in the future. Jesus, can nobody interpret what I'm trying to say?

Remember common courtesy? Get some.

[Melidan]

To whomever gave him an infraction, thank you.

[Dark Force]

But they're humans. And I'm not saying that this is in the Constitution or whatever, but if they're humans by your logic (even though they're not fully developed) shouldn't they be counted as citizens? After all, they are children.

I'll repeat what I said earlier. That's exactly what Bingo nights and knitting clubs are for.

First of all, its not my logic. Logic is logic, it isn't special or different for anyone. And fact is fact, I have not posted anything that was a lie or is hearsay. I used raw facts and yes, logic to support my point. That was how you are suppose to debate, otherwise it is an argument and is pointless.

I just told you that the census is based on citizenship, which is defined by the Constitution. If you want to change the Constitution so that they are counted, write your senator, it won't hurt my feelings.

Bingo Nights only go so far, trust me. When you spend a lot of time with them you begin to see this and understand.

[Lord Necronomis]

Lenin. . . (sorry, I was away the weekend as I said somewhere else due to my lack of internet at home)

I just read through what I missed over the weekend. With every page, what respect I had for you dropped. I'm quite ashamed that, sadly, you represent a great many people of our generation. I'm ashamed and greatly disturbed that you even feel comfortable enough with "yourself" and your "logic" to say some of these things so brazenly. Not only that, but you continuously ignored DF's logic about the census, called insults out to people who disagreed with you, and that comment about the rape. . .and then your "defense" was that you weren't joking? Wow, man. . .just wow.

I strongly suggest you withdraw yourself for a time, sit and think about life and the meanings of things, and then eventually find a therapist. I'm not joking, and I'm not trying to insult you. I mean that in all honesty; if you keep down the road you seem to be on, your life will fall to pieces.

[leninrocks244]

Lenin. . . (sorry, I was away the weekend as I said somewhere else due to my lack of internet at home)

I just read through what I missed over the weekend. With every page, what respect I had for you dropped. I'm quite ashamed that, sadly, you represent a great many people of our generation. I'm ashamed and greatly disturbed that you even feel comfortable enough with "yourself" and your "logic" to say some of these things so brazenly. Not only that, but you continuously ignored DF's logic about the census, called insults out to people who disagreed with you, and that comment about the rape. . .and then your "defense" was that you weren't joking? Wow, man. . .just wow.

I strongly suggest you withdraw yourself for a time, sit and think about life and the meanings of things, and then eventually find a therapist. I'm not joking, and I'm not trying to insult you. I mean that in all honesty; if you keep down the road you seem to be on, your life will fall to pieces.

Dude, I honestly don't care what people think of me, especially strangers over the Interwebz. I don't view myself as a representation of many people in our generation. Doing so would be generalizing and stupid. But I wasn't joking, I swear to God. There had to be some reason behind her bitchyness and hatred of free-loaders besides being constantly on her period.

The advice you've given me is useless. I've withdrawn myself many of time to organize my philosophies on many things, and every therapist that has passed through my childhood has brought nothing but useless advice and failure. Although I congratulate you in being one of the few people to not actually insult me, I find your advice to be of little to no use. What people think of me in the Internet as opposed to real life is useless. To me, you are all random strangers speaking their minds and nothing more.

[leninrocks244]

First of all, its not my logic. Logic is logic, it isn't special or different for anyone. And fact is fact, I have not posted anything that was a lie or is hearsay. I used raw facts and yes, logic to support my point. That was how you are suppose to debate, otherwise it is an argument and is pointless.

I just told you that the census is based on citizenship, which is defined by the Constitution. If you want to change the Constitution so that they are counted, write your senator, it won't hurt my feelings.

Bingo Nights only go so far, trust me. When you spend a lot of time with them you begin to see this and understand.

I know, but from what you said that fetuses are also human beings. And logically, if they're human beings, they should be counted as citizens. This is just what I'm interpreting.

And that's why there's always knitting clubs and shuffleboard.

[Assarax]

Dude, I honestly don't care what people think of me, especially strangers over the Interwebz. I don't view myself as a representation of many people in our generation. Doing so would be generalizing and stupid. But I wasn't joking, I swear to God. There had to be some reason behind her bitchyness and hatred of free-loaders besides being constantly on her period.

The advice you've given me is useless. I've withdrawn myself many of time to organize my philosophies on many things, and every therapist that has passed through my childhood has brought nothing but useless advice and failure. Although I congratulate you in being one of the few people to not actually insult me, I find your advice to be of little to no use. What people think of me in the Internet as opposed to real life is useless. To me, you are all random strangers speaking their minds and nothing more.

So, just because you don't care what people think of you over the internet, it gives you the right to go around being a complete and utter dillhole to everyone that disagrees to you? I hate free-loaders just as much as Ayrrie, because, unlike some people, I actually work to earn a living.

I said this to you over a PM before and I will say it now. The way you conduct yourself here is reflective of how you behave as a person in real life. If this is how you treat people you actually have met face-to-face, I doubt you have many friends.

[Ayrrie]

But I wasn't joking, I swear to God. There had to be some reason behind her bitchyness and hatred of free-loaders besides being constantly on her period.

Yes, I am a biological impossibility. All hail me!

[Lord Necronomis]

If you've not only had multiple therapists in only 16 years, but every one of them "failed," then that only stresses further the trouble you are in. And I never said you claimed to represent anyone, I was merely lamenting on the vast number of people our age that conduct themselves with the same mentality you put forward. If you really don't want to listen to me, you don't have to, but I've been through my share of shit, and I've seen others who have but refused to admit it. I'm not just pulling shit out of my ass. Seriously man, if you ignore me because I'm "some stranger on the interwebz," you will regret something. You won't necessarily remember or admit it was this, but you'll wish you'd done something crucial different, for valid reason.

[Assarax]

Yes, I am a biological impossibility. All hail me!

* Assarax hails Ayrrie

[Lord Necronomis]

Yes, I am a biological impossibility. All hail me!

* Necronomis also hails

[shadow]

Yes, I am a biological impossibility. All hail me!

* shadow hails Ayrrie as well

[ParkerBaby]

Yes, I am a biological impossibility. All hail me!

* ParkerBaby hails Ayrrie, then gets to work on the holy book.

[mhawk]

View Post
Were you brutally raped as a child? Seriously. Lighten up.


There had to be some reason behind her bitchyness and hatred of free-loaders besides being constantly on her period.

I am become death, destroyer of sexist assholes. ADS activated.

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r288/mhawkcmaster/ayrriepayback.png

[Iron Wolf]

Nice shot! o/

[bigdaddychacha]

lol wut?
When did leninrocks leave Legion, and under what "circumstances?"
Is this a ZI/permaZI mission?
Why is TPF fighting a battle that it would seem would rightly be Elysium's? Or did he do something else, too?
Leninrocks definately crossed some lines and I'm not defending him, this is just all very surprising to watch because a lot of people have crossed a lot of lines, over the months...

[mhawk]

I was leader/founder of Elysium. We merged into TPF, I'm leader of TPF. Ayrrie is High Command at TPF.

[totem]

lol wut?
When did leninrocks leave Legion, and under what "circumstances?"
Is this a ZI/permaZI mission?
Why is TPF fighting a battle that it would seem would rightly be Elysium's? Or did he do something else, too?
Leninrocks definately crossed some lines and I'm not defending him, this is just all very surprising to watch because a lot of people have crossed a lot of lines, over the months...

Well, he's crossed the most lines in the shortest time..

[Ayrrie]

I'm through with dealing with sexist, offensive assholes.

Also, what mhawk said: Elysium merged into TPF, and I am high command there. This is most certainly TPF's battle--I just regret that he's too small for me to stomp myself.

[bigdaddychacha]

Well, he's crossed the most lines in the shortest time..Perhaps, but perhaps he has been encouraged in an environment where everyone seems to be crossing some lines most of the time.

To be honest, what was said a few days ago about "white women being with black men being disgusting is not a racist belief" was incredibly personally offensive to me because after my parents divorced, my mom's eventual boyfriend was a black man who was decent and an all around good guy. Yet, they suffered discriminatory treatment at many restaurants when they would go out for dinner, as well as from other corners of society.

I could have chosen to make a big stink about what those guys said here and try to get Legion to banish the folks who were saying it and ODN to attack them, but I chose to argue it out with them based solely on the merits of their poor logic.

When right wingers can say shit like that and get away with it, does that not create an environment where leninrocks might feel that he could say whatever he wanted and never be reprimanded? Now what we have is OOC stuff being used to justify IC CN military actions; that never sits well with me, even in the cases in the past where it has worked in my favor.

Discuss.

[bigdaddychacha]

I'm through with dealing with sexist, offensive assholes.

Also, what mhawk said: Elysium merged into TPF, and I am high command there. This is most certainly TPF's battle--I just regret that he's too small for me to stomp myself.I now have a better understanding of the TPF/Elysium connection, thanks for clarifying.

Ayrrie, what Leninrocks said to you was disgusting, completely unsupportable, and unabashadly offensive and he should have suffered something for that.

I respect that you would like to be through dealing with sexist, offensive assholes; I would like to be through dealing with racist, offensive assholes...Yet, here they still reside at avelegio.net! Even if I could personally ZI them all, it wouldn't solve the overall problem in any meaningful way. Just as attacking Leninrocks ingame isn't going to shield you from mysogyny (sp?) for the rest of your days...

[Ayrrie]

Misogyny.

And perhaps it won't shield me from it--however, you did say he should suffer something, and I am fully ensuring that he does. Granted, it's only in-game, but there it is.

[bigdaddychacha]

Misogyny.

And perhaps it won't shield me from it--however, you did say he should suffer something, and I am fully ensuring that he does. Granted, it's only in-game, but there it is.There are a lot of people that should suffer for one thing or another, as with the examples I mentioned. I abhor sexism, too; I just have a stronger belief in seperating IC/OOC stuff, I guess.

[Iron Wolf]

He may very well have been encouraged to take his extremism further by the rampant flame-fests. Further by a couple feet while not acceptable could have been dealt with better. It was his own choosing to take it a few extra light years.

[mhawk]

There are a lot of people that should suffer for one thing or another, as with the examples I mentioned. I abhor sexism, too; I just have a stronger belief in seperating IC/OOC stuff, I guess.

No one said I'm a nice guy.

[bigdaddychacha]

No one said I'm a nice guy.So when can we expect your unmerciful Cybernations campaign on racism to begin?
:lurk:

[mhawk]

So when can we expect your unmerciful Cybernations campaign on racism to begin?
:lurk:
Been there done that, check NoV/SoM.

[bigdaddychacha]

Been there done that, check NoV/SoM.It was truly a happy day, the day when CN at large finally saw NoV for what it really was. But racism persists!

[Dark Force]

I know, but from what you said that fetuses are also human beings. And logically, if they're human beings, they should be counted as citizens. This is just what I'm interpreting.

And that's why there's always knitting clubs and shuffleboard.

Um, someone else have a Leninrocks244 CD? I find it hilarious to listen to, but mine keeps skipping :P

Yes, I am a biological impossibility. All hail me!
* Dark Force hails Ayrrie

I'm through with dealing with sexist, offensive assholes.

Not all guys are like Lenin, I think you understand this.
No sarcasm: I think a lot of what he does is to make up for his own inadequacies.

[Assarax]

Perhaps, but perhaps he has been encouraged in an environment where everyone seems to be crossing some lines most of the time.

To be honest, what was said a few days ago about "white women being with black men being disgusting is not a racist belief" was incredibly personally offensive to me because after my parents divorced, my mom's eventual boyfriend was a black man who was decent and an all around good guy. Yet, they suffered discriminatory treatment at many restaurants when they would go out for dinner, as well as from other corners of society.

I could have chosen to make a big stink about what those guys said here and try to get Legion to banish the folks who were saying it and ODN to attack them, but I chose to argue it out with them based solely on the merits of their poor logic.

When right wingers can say shit like that and get away with it, does that not create an environment where leninrocks might feel that he could say whatever he wanted and never be reprimanded? Now what we have is OOC stuff being used to justify IC CN military actions; that never sits well with me, even in the cases in the past where it has worked in my favor.

Discuss.

Lenin's behavior does not just stem to these past few weeks. Almost from the time he came here, he was causing problems on the Real World Forum. After repeated requests to cool it and clean up his language, he finally responded by just calling us all retards. There were some circumstances to his leaving, which I won't discuss here, but feel free to PM me if you want to learn more :)

[Villalba]

Ohh i feel good that happen.

[James Davis]

Damn...I'm gonna almost miss him.

[Villalba]

Not me. What an...

I better not say anything, keep my mouth shut.

[James Davis]

Well, every once in a while I've had a bad day, and I just need to kick something around for a few hours.

[Ayrrie]

I'm told I'm a good sparring partner. However, I fight back, so I'm probably not what you need. ;)

[James Davis]

Oh he fought back, usually just digging a bigger hole for himself, as you have witnessed. ;)

[tom the pit leader]

Well, he's gone now, or at least for now and all I have to say is "good riddance."

In all seriousness, really, I hate people like him more than I hate people who disagree with me, which I what I would be would be more or less most of you here on at least serval important and different points. However, on the whole, I have found that people such as yourselves are more pleasant on the whole to debate with than if you were all like Lennin. I have "friends" in real life who honestly worship the ground I walk on, no lie. And, as many of you probably know, while it sounds fun, it really isn't, because all to often, they just end up paroting arguments they don't understand and can't make, and thus make everone who holds that postion look a little dumber.

When I hold a position, I only take ones I can defend, and only pick fights I can win. But when you have idiots like Lennin who don't care if they can win or fight with intellegence, then that makes my point a lot harder.

Honestly, other than not liking to type a lot, one of the main factors in me not taking a larger roll in the RW debates was many of my points line up with Lennin's, but I know that down the road, someone is going to find these servers when I go to college and when I run for office, (2016, look for me on your ballot in IL) and if I argued like him, guess how long I'd be a contendor. Many people don't get that employers will look for you, and if you're going to say stupid things, you better make damn sure that there's no way to tie it to your RL name.

Originally Posted by Ayrrie
Yes, I am a biological impossibility. All hail me!
* Tom hails Ayrrie*

And with Dark force, not all guys are like that. And to go a step furthur, not all librals are like that, just like not all conservatives are like some people here I won't mention.

I didn't see the tipping coment because it got deleated, but it it's the rape one, hell, I'd declare on him if he was in my range. That's one of those lines you just don't cross

And unity/coheion in writing is over-rated, IMO

[James Davis]

Well, he's gone now, or at least for now and all I have to say is "good riddance."

In all seriousness, really, I hate people like him more than I hate people who disagree with me, which I what I would be would be more or less most of you here on at least serval important and different points. However, on the whole, I have found that people such as yourselves are more pleasant on the whole to debate with than if you were all like Lennin. I have "friends" in real life who honestly worship the ground I walk on, no lie. And, as many of you probably know, while it sounds fun, it really isn't, because all to often, they just end up paroting arguments they don't understand and can't make, and thus make everone who holds that postion look a little dumber.

When I hold a position, I only take ones I can defend, and only pick fights I can win. But when you have idiots like Lennin who don't care if they can win or fight with intellegence, then that makes my point a lot harder.

Honestly, other than not liking to type a lot, one of the main factors in me not taking a larger roll in the RW debates was many of my points line up with Lennin's, but I know that down the road, someone is going to find these servers when I go to college and when I run for office, (2016, look for me on your ballot in IL) and if I argued like him, guess how long I'd be a contendor. Many people don't get that employers will look for you, and if you're going to say stupid things, you better make damn sure that there's no way to tie it to your RL name.


* Tom hails Ayrrie*

And with Dark force, not all guys are like that. And to go a step furthur, not all librals are like that, just like not all conservatives are like some people here I won't mention.

I didn't see the tipping coment because it got deleated, but it it's the rape one, hell, I'd declare on him if he was in my range. That's one of those lines you just don't cross

And unity/coheion in writing is over-rated, IMO

God help us. :P

[Villalba]

Yes Tom.
By the way:
Im your mortal enemy, im red and you are blue. xP

[The Corporal]

I think this subforum will get a lot more friendly without lenin around. I did agree with him perhaps 10 times ever, but he crossed the line and needed to apologize or GTFO.

[tom the pit leader]

God help us. :P

I'm what you call planning ahead.

[AzureShadow]

Well, after reading 15 pages of crap, I understand why Lenin left and why he is at war and why a lot of people are pissed at him.

Good riddance, I say. That kind of comment is completely over the top.