McCain's captor claims torture was a lie

[Imperial]

This is an interesting story. From the man who was in charge of the POW prison, he says he talked with McCain and the claims of torture are a lie. He also says that he has followed McCain's career and that the torture claims are just a way of gaining votes. He says that if he were an American, he'd vote for McCain.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7459946.stm

[IronsightSniper]

Wait, why would he vote McCain if McCain lied?

[Aussie Avenger]

probably because he respects strength i guess, and McCain has that going for him

[Tox]

Wait, why would he vote McCain if McCain lied?

well he is a republican

[Melidan]

Even though I don't like him, I dont believe he would lie. Doesn't he suffer from lifelong debilitating injuries because of his torture? How else would he get those injuries?

[The Corporal]

This assertion can only be a liberal smear tactic. I may not like McCain's policies, but to attack his honor and try to pass off his experience of being a POW as being a lie is utterly disgusting. What's next, really? If the next Republican presidential candidate happens to suffer from Gulf War Syndrome, is the liberal establishment going to say that such a disease doesn't exist and that the guy is imagining it all? What a crock.

[IronsightSniper]

Even though I don't like him, I dont believe he would lie. Doesn't he suffer from lifelong debilitating injuries because of his torture? How else would he get those injuries?

Falling?

[Lincongrad]

This assertion can only be a liberal smear tactic. I may not like McCain's policies, but to attack his honor and try to pass off his experience of being a POW as being a lie is utterly disgusting. What's next, really? If the next Republican presidential candidate happens to suffer from Gulf War Syndrome, is the liberal establishment going to say that such a disease doesn't exist and that the guy is imagining it all? What a crock.

Whoa, dude. Chill. Liberal smear tactic? THis guy's not liberal. He's not american. He's not a democrat. I see no 'liberal smear'. Maybe a smear by a communist official, yes.

[Imperial]

Whoa, dude. Chill. Liberal smear tactic? THis guy's not liberal. He's not american. He's not a democrat. I see no 'liberal smear'. Maybe a smear by a communist official, yes.

For some Republicans, there is no different between a liberal & a communist :P

[The Corporal]

And there is, of course, no possibility at all that he was put up to this by a moneyed friend-of-a-friend of people who don't want McCain to be our next president? It's nice that we're getting along better with Vietnam, but this is still a vile and outrageous attack on someone who spent years as a POW. I don't even really care why this story breaks at such an opportune moment for the Democrats; even if he was defaming a former POW who is not potentially the next leader of our country, I'd still be furious. This is similar to the government of Iran denying the Holocaust, just on a smaller scale. Absolutely revolting...

[Hubb]

well he is a republican


.....:5headache:

Sorry bro. Republicans don't have the market cornered on lying.

This story absolutely disgusts me. It's a slap in the face of all POW's.

By the way, LG, this story came from the BBC. So, yeah, it is liberal.

[Imperial]

This story is nowhere to be found on FOX News :P

Although according to Google News, only 31 articles are up. http://news.google.com/news?q=Tran%20Trong%20Duyet&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wn

[Izubibbywutz]

Even though I don't like him, I dont believe he would lie. Doesn't he suffer from lifelong debilitating injuries because of his torture? How else would he get those injuries?

He did crash a plane melidan...

[Hubb]

He did crash a plane melidan...


...and then he sat in the lap of luxury for the next several years, eating pudding, playing ping-pong, and drinkin' brews with the Viet Cong, right?

C'mon man. Please tell me you're joking.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/2008/01/28/john-mccain-prisoner-of-war-a-first-person-account.html

[Lincongrad]

...and then he sat in the lap of luxury for the next several years, eating pudding, playing ping-pong, and drinkin' brews with the Viet Cong, right?

C'mon man. Please tell me you're joking.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/2008/01/28/john-mccain-prisoner-of-war-a-first-person-account.html

Of course not. I absolutely believe he was tortured. My point is that this Vietnamese dude was probably put up to this by his friends or his government or hey, maybe by some crazy American liberal. So? That doesn't make it a liberal plot, similarly to how, say, the Waco incident was not a conservative plot. We all know there're crazies on both sides. Don't blame the sides for what a few nuts might have done.

[Iron Wolf]

The article brings back vague memories of Jane Fonda telling everyone in America how humanely the American POW "babykillers" were being treated. :eyeroll:

[Aussie Avenger]

i've watched the interview, and he said that there was no torture that went on in that prision, they probabaly to simuler things that americans today use on iraqi's and other captured peoples.

[Izubibbywutz]

THIS ELECTION ON CONFUZZLINNNNNNNNNN

[Snickers]

You know why they denounce doing any torutres? Because they would get in trouble for it like our Interrogators are getting into now. Torture is not socialibly acceptable. So if they hear you turured people all these Hippies willjump on you critizing you. Im pretty sure McCain was tortured. The north Vietnamese tortured alot of people. They killed alot of POWs as well. Some of these POWs have never been given back to us and which they are still on our MIA list. Most of the Communist countries we had issues with will not publically say they tortured or kept POWs during our after the conflicts. With the War now, I do think we should "torture" them just enough till they give the information we need and after that put them in Guantanamo till wars end. Liberals always complain about our "horrible" tortures we do to the terrorist, but have you seen what they have done to our soldiers they capture? Most of the time their bodies are never recovered, we hear very little about them, and if we do find them they are beheaded. So why are you liberals agianst torture and give these thugs the rights we have as americans? They are our enemies!

[Lincongrad]

I have one answer to the above statement: We are the good guys. They are the bad guys. Good guys do not torture.

Anyone who wants to see alternatives to torture, read Tom Clancy. He does it all the time.

[The Arbiter]

Wait, why would he vote McCain if McCain lied?
McCain didn't lie! The dumb Korean is the one whose lying. It's obvious. The BBC is a liberal anti-American newspaper, North Korea is an anti-American country, so it just makes sense that McCain's the one lying? Anyway, of course McCain was tortured in the POW Camp, how can Duyet say he never tortured any prisoner. That's just dumb. Of course they did, that's what POW camps are for. It makes me sick to see that article printed.

[Lincongrad]

Vietnam, actually.

[The Arbiter]

Whatever, Vietnamese. It makes no difference.

[Lincongrad]

Correct. I disagree, however, with the point that the BBC is trying to discredit McCain. Okay, they're reporting on this. They dig for shit on Obama too. They'll go for whatever makes the best news, and usually that means shit.

Again, the vietnamese guy is obviously lying through his teeth. I'm just offended by the fact that all you people are assuming this is a 'liberal plot'.

[The Arbiter]

It's not a liberal plot. But it is undeniable that BBC is liberal. Please go on IRC though, I have an important thing to discuss with you.

[The Corporal]

Correct. I disagree, however, with the point that the BBC is trying to discredit McCain. Okay, they're reporting on this. They dig for shit on Obama too. They'll go for whatever makes the best news, and usually that means shit.

Again, the vietnamese guy is obviously lying through his teeth. I'm just offended by the fact that all you people are assuming this is a 'liberal plot'.

Linc, could you point me towards BBC videos or articles where they dig up dirt on Obama? I don't really pay attention to the BBC unless Keeping Up Appearances or Doctor Who is on...

[Lincongrad]

Sure. Not tonight, cause it's late, but remind me.

[Zagato]

Vietnam is quite the touchy subject, eh?

[leninrocks244]

For some Republicans, there is no different between a liberal & a communist :P

Shit, I was just about to say that.

[Snickers]

Liberal democrats are basically the new Communist party here. If you compare them they are very similiar. Especiallythe Big Government part. Communist want to control what you do, so do the Democrats, they just dont out right say it because its not popular but if you look at what legistlation they are trying to pass it is. For example: the Fairness Act, with a name like that it doesnt sound bad, But whats involved in it is. This Act says that every radio political staion or anything political has to have oposition to it like 2 sides on it, mainly just the republican based news places but this wont apply to Democrats couse they are elitist and these things dont apply to them. Another issue is Universal Health Care... Currently we have the best health care system in the world, but they want to change that to a system in which the nations who currently use it are not as well off. They will charge very high taxes to help pay for it but with the huge population they wont beable to. I believe Sweden has 60% taxes because of this system(of course they have a small population so it may work for them). Another issue with the Universal health care is the Government tells you which doctor you can go to. So if you really need this surgrey but your doctor cant do it, You are screwed! Since the governemtn cant pay for it they will also have to start limiting who gets health care. Say your 60 years old, You need a heart transplant, The government will look at it and say "well your 60 years old and youll probaly die soon anyways and your retired so we dont really need you, so we wont waste the money on you." thats where itll start eventually as the cost increases and they are more desperate to pay for it theyll keep cutting back, like if you Smoke, no healthcare, if you eat McDonalds, no health care, its not healthy. This will probaly be some 20-30 years down the road for it to get that bad, but it can happen. This is how they will control your lives. It wont be quick, theyll slowly ease into it so you dont notice right off until its to late. So this Election think twice about who your voting for.

[The Arbiter]

Snickers, :word2: Someone who realizes what is wrong with liberal mindset.

[Zagato]

Liberal democrats are basically the new Communist party here. If you compare them they are very similiar. Especiallythe Big Government part. Communist want to control what you do, so do the Democrats, they just dont out right say it because its not popular but if you look at what legistlation they are trying to pass it is. For example: the Fairness Act, with a name like that it doesnt sound bad, But whats involved in it is. This Act says that every radio political staion or anything political has to have oposition to it like 2 sides on it, mainly just the republican based news places but this wont apply to Democrats couse they are elitist and these things dont apply to them. Another issue is Universal Health Care... Currently we have the best health care system in the world, but they want to change that to a system in which the nations who currently use it are not as well off. They will charge very high taxes to help pay for it but with the huge population they wont beable to. I believe Sweden has 60% taxes because of this system(of course they have a small population so it may work for them). Another issue with the Universal health care is the Government tells you which doctor you can go to. So if you really need this surgrey but your doctor cant do it, You are screwed! Since the governemtn cant pay for it they will also have to start limiting who gets health care. Say your 60 years old, You need a heart transplant, The government will look at it and say "well your 60 years old and youll probaly die soon anyways and your retired so we dont really need you, so we wont waste the money on you." thats where itll start eventually as the cost increases and they are more desperate to pay for it theyll keep cutting back, like if you Smoke, no healthcare, if you eat McDonalds, no health care, its not healthy. This will probaly be some 20-30 years down the road for it to get that bad, but it can happen. This is how they will control your lives. It wont be quick, theyll slowly ease into it so you dont notice right off until its to late. So this Election think twice about who your voting for.

Wow, just wow.
I think a better way to put this is;
If you want to try something familiar, vote McCain.
If you want to try something new, vote Obama.

[The Arbiter]

Wow, just wow.
I think a better way to put this is;
If you want to try something familiar, vote McCain.
If you want to try something new, vote Obama.
Think for yourself. You quoted that directly from Obama (one of the worst presidential candidates of all time.)

[Zagato]

Think for yourself. You quoted that directly from Obama (one of the worst presidential candidates of all time.)

Well even if he did say that, it's true!

[The Arbiter]

Proof, please.

[Hubb]

Well even if he did say that, it's true!


That's not a "truth," that's your "opinion."

...oh, and :word2:, Snickers, :word2:.

[DarkNoble]

This assertion can only be a liberal smear tactic. I may not like McCain's policies, but to attack his honor and try to pass off his experience of being a POW as being a lie is utterly disgusting. What's next, really? If the next Republican presidential candidate happens to suffer from Gulf War Syndrome, is the liberal establishment going to say that such a disease doesn't exist and that the guy is imagining it all? What a crock.


Republicans did this same crap to Kerry. It's funny when Republicans do it to democrats, it's the truth but when democrats do it to republicans it's liberal smear tactics.

However, with that being said. McCain should have been running for President back in 2000 IMHO. We'd be a lot better off right now.

[leninrocks244]

Liberal democrats are basically the new Communist party here. If you compare them they are very similiar. Especiallythe Big Government part. Communist want to control what you do, so do the Democrats, they just dont out right say it because its not popular but if you look at what legistlation they are trying to pass it is. For example: the Fairness Act, with a name like that it doesnt sound bad, But whats involved in it is. This Act says that every radio political staion or anything political has to have oposition to it like 2 sides on it, mainly just the republican based news places but this wont apply to Democrats couse they are elitist and these things dont apply to them. Another issue is Universal Health Care... Currently we have the best health care system in the world, but they want to change that to a system in which the nations who currently use it are not as well off. They will charge very high taxes to help pay for it but with the huge population they wont beable to. I believe Sweden has 60% taxes because of this system(of course they have a small population so it may work for them). Another issue with the Universal health care is the Government tells you which doctor you can go to. So if you really need this surgrey but your doctor cant do it, You are screwed! Since the governemtn cant pay for it they will also have to start limiting who gets health care. Say your 60 years old, You need a heart transplant, The government will look at it and say "well your 60 years old and youll probaly die soon anyways and your retired so we dont really need you, so we wont waste the money on you." thats where itll start eventually as the cost increases and they are more desperate to pay for it theyll keep cutting back, like if you Smoke, no healthcare, if you eat McDonalds, no health care, its not healthy. This will probaly be some 20-30 years down the road for it to get that bad, but it can happen. This is how they will control your lives. It wont be quick, theyll slowly ease into it so you dont notice right off until its to late. So this Election think twice about who your voting for.

Utterly depressing. If if this was written 60 or 70 years ago, I would've thought that a Nazi wrote this...

[The Arbiter]

Oh, please. I share his views and I'm far from a Nazi.

[The Corporal]

Sure. Not tonight, cause it's late, but remind me.
It's late now too.... :D

Republicans did this same crap to Kerry. It's funny when Republicans do it to democrats, it's the truth but when democrats do it to republicans it's liberal smear tactics.

However, with that being said. McCain should have been running for President back in 2000 IMHO. We'd be a lot better off right now.
I'm not saying it's funny or even that it was right to do that to him. However, the probability that the Kerry business was some deep dark Republican conspiracy isn't nearly as great as this unfounded attack on McCain could be a Democrat conspiracy. Which seems more likely - that a dozen American veterans would get a nudge from Bush campaign staffers to call into question Senator Kerry's military record or that a single Vietnamese ex-POW camp torturer would get some cash, some recognition, and some plausible public ass-covering for calling McCain an outright liar? Why not come forward years ago? Why not during McCain's last presidential bid? Why only now, when he has a damn decent chance of being the next President? That's what I want to know.

[leninrocks244]

Oh, please. I share his views and I'm far from a Nazi.

Not giving somebody health care and letting them die because they smoke or they like to eat alot of fast food and not giving a shit because you want to save a buck sounds pretty Nazish to me.

[Hubb]

Not giving somebody health care and letting them die because they smoke or they like to eat alot of fast food and not giving a shit because you want to save a buck sounds pretty Nazish to me.

I'm getting ready to start clowning you. Here. In the public forums.

I'm getting pretty fucking tired of hearing people throw Hitler and his goosestepping morons around as an impediment to another person's argument.

By the way, look at what socialized medicine will do!!!!

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/08/no_surgery_for_british_smokers/

Don't call someone a nazi unless you have proof. If you want to debate facts, that's one thing, but going all ad hominem on someone just ensures you look like an idiot and are arguing using your emotions instead of any fact whatsoever.

[leninrocks244]

I'm getting ready to start clowning you. Here. In the public forums.

I'm getting pretty fucking tired of hearing people throw Hitler and his goosestepping morons around as an impediment to another person's argument.

By the way, look at what socialized medicine will do!!!!

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/08/no_surgery_for_british_smokers/

Don't call someone a nazi unless you have proof. If you want to debate facts, that's one thing, but going all ad hominem on someone just ensures you look like an idiot and are arguing using your emotions instead of any fact whatsoever.

You're forgetting the fact that the Nazis built their whole philosophy around social darwinism, which is what you guys are supporting. Go ahead and clown me, do I really give a rat's ass what you right-wing fuckheads (except for Melidan because he's cool) think about me? Not really.

[Hubb]

You're forgetting the fact that the Nazis built their whole philosophy around social darwinism, which is what you guys are supporting. Go ahead and clown me, do I really give a rat's ass what you right-wing fuckheads (except for Melidan because he's cool) think about me? Not really.


How about this? You learn to have a mature debate instead of casting your judgment on people?

Even better: Grow up.

By the way, I really don't care if you think I'm a "fuckhead." I'll keep clowning you, watch you get even more upset, and totally self-destruct. Kinda like you just did.

[Melidan]

You're forgetting the fact that the Nazis built their whole philosophy around social darwinism, which is what you guys are supporting. Go ahead and clown me, do I really give a rat's ass what you right-wing fuckheads (except for Melidan because he's cool) think about me? Not really.

LOL Shout out to Melidan

[leninrocks244]

How about this? You learn to have a mature debate instead of casting your judgment on people?

Even better: Grow up.

By the way, I really don't care if you think I'm a "fuckhead." I'll keep clowning you, watch you get even more upset, and totally self-destruct. Kinda like you just did.

Dude, I don't care so go ahead and waste your life.

[leninrocks244]

LOL Shout out to Melidan

Well hey I wouldn't be here if it wasen't for you, so cheers. :beer2:

[Hubb]

Dude, I don't care so go ahead and waste your life.


LOL. Nah, it's been really, really easy doing it so far. In fact, it's been a real pleasure.

[leninrocks244]

LOL. Nah, it's been really, really easy doing it so far. In fact, it's been a real pleasure.

Ok then...

[The Arbiter]

Lenin, thank you for your comments. Very funny. :cheers:

[Snickers]

Wait Lenin are you saying I as a republican, and my views are Naziish? Or are you saying the The Democrats are Naziish? Couse my statement is of what the Democrats are trying to force upon us. And as you can read from that artical Hubb posted, Britain is already refusing surgreys and stuff for smokers. That same thing will happen here in the USA if you elect a democrat. I dont know about you but since the end of World War II, we have been trying to defeat communism because of its wicked ways, but recently the Democrats are trying to bring it into our country, do you think thats a good thing? I think not. I believe we should stick to the CONSTITUTION, NOT CHANGE IT! This country was made because people made their own lives by working hard, raising their OWN families, Supporting their families on their OWN. If you have been watching the news, many of the wacko liberals have been trying to have the government provide everything. They use Welfare as a way to get votes because if they keep giving you money for free would you vote for them? They will say "this is what we want to do for you, only if we win this election so vote for us!" Also they are trying to take our own kids away from us, They think the government should raise the children and that parents are wrong in raising them how they want to. The Liberals are trying to take everything America is away from us. I took an Oath for my Country that says
"I __________ do Solemnly Swear that I will SUPPORT and DEFEND the Consitution of the United States agianst ALL enemies, foriegn and Domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the Orders of the Officers appointed over me, according to the regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me GOD.

I fight to protect what America stands for. For all you hard working people who make an honest living, who raise their families and provide for them. There is a war going on, not just in Iraq and Afghanistan, but here in our own country. Obama says he will pull out all our troops from Iraq qithin 30 days. Does he realize that would be a huge mistake for our own national Security? There would be ahuge power vacum in Iraq because the Iraqi military does not have the amount of troops and experience it needs to continue and it will collapse. Countries like Iran have said they will fill that gap, Iran will invade and use it agianst us. It will be used as a huge breeding ground for terrorism. They will beable to launch many new attacks agianst the USA as well as the rest of the world. You think this may be nonsense, but the terrorist themselves have made this claim in their videos and audio tapes. We are WINNING in Iraq. wether you believe it or not. There has been alot of progress there and the attacks are becoming fewer. Military Intel has recovered Journals of Alqeada in Iraq that have said for instance, this one insurgent was in a battalion(170 people or so) who came into Iraq and within several months himself and just about 20 others were left because the US Military have either killed or Captured most of them. These reports are coming from all over Iraq. Many of the Tribal leaders who were with Al queada have turned agianst them because of the harm and bad intentions they have and they began turning them into US and Iraqi Forces. The Iraqi government is making progress, yes it is slow, but its going. The US goverment took over 10 years after indepence was won to have a government set up. Iraq has done it in less than 5 years, they just have to fix some issues. The Iraqi people love us, of course the liberal media will not tell you that, because THEY WANT US TO LOSE! It would have been nice if there was no war, but sometimes you just gotta do it, appeasing the enemy never works, they will keep demanding more and more. I fully support our mission in Iraq and it is something I am willing to lay my life down for because if we fail, our country is at jeopardy. There has to be sacrifice, war is rough, people die. As an American soldiers, we know what we are fighting for, we volunteered full knowing the price we may have to pay. I would surely like to be home with my family and friends but we have a Job to do and its a sacrifice we have to make. Never forget that our soldiers are fighting and dieing for you so you can live a happy and peaceful life with your family, your friends, so you can have a nice comfortable job with no worries that today might be your last. We go on 1 year deployments over there. When we go the last time we see our family and friends is when we are getting on that plane, for 4081 soldiers/sailors/airmen and Marines, that was the last time their families ever saw them agian. Its hard to say good bye when you know this may be the last time. Remember the sacrifices they make for you everyday. I think Im done with this post now... This is long.... sorry.....

[leninrocks244]

I'm not going to bother giving a reply to this. It's all propoganda and bullshit. Although I do respect you for joining the Armed Forces, I just think you have your head up your ass with extensive patriotism and paranoia.

[Snickers]

Darn straight i have extensive Patriotism! Im freaking Proud of my Country. Arnt you? This isnt paranoia and propoganda, its fact, this is what will happen and is happening. Follow the news closely and you will see. Watch Fox news, they are actually reliable unlike CNN(Clinton News Network) and BBC(Barracks Broadcasting Channel). :)

[leninrocks244]

Darn straight i have extensive Patriotism! Im freaking Proud of my Country. Arnt you? This isnt paranoia and propoganda, its fact, this is what will happen and is happening. Follow the news closely and you will see. Watch Fox news, they are actually reliable unlike CNN(Clinton News Network) and BBC(Barracks Broadcasting Channel). :)

It's my home. I love it, but nationalism and patriotism causes hate and war. Democrats are secretly Communist and the Taliban is going to bomb Hickville, USA if we pull out of Iraq. That sounds like paranoia to me. We're not dying for anything over there. The facts are clear. We went in there for weapons of mass destruction (which WE gave them), but there were none. Even before we went in there werent any weapons. You're in the military. Your mind has been warped so the government can make you think what they want you to think. I don't really want to watch FOX News because I don't want to watch an hour of people telling me what I should think. Half of the people on there don't even believe in the 1st Amendment. Bush doesn't. Come on. "Free Speech zones" in D.C.? You're risking your life for capitalistic imperialism created by a soon-to-be totalitarian dictatorship. And learn to spell for the love of Christ, you fucking hick.

Ok I'm done. If you need me, contact my nation's mailbox. These forums are too stupid for me.

[Snickers]

I think the liberals have brain washed you. The government does not brain wash the military, only in basic training they brain wash you a bit to get you to work as a unit as a team, to tear you down and build you into a soldier. Your not making any sense either "We went in there for weapons of mass destruction (which WE gave them), but there were none." if we gave them weapons, how come there were none? By the way we did find some weapons, mostly biological weapons. And We didnt give them any because after Desert Storm there were Sanctions on Iraq for weapons and such so I doubt wed give them any if we were trying to stop them from getting some. What your probaly thinking with those weapons is Alqeada. Back in the 70's-80's the russians invaded afghanistan and we gave weapons to the Afghans to help them fend off the rusians. Bush did not come up with "free speech zones" Stuff like that belongs to the Mayor of the City, Bush is not the mayor. He doesnt tell anyone they cant speak their opinion. Only way or free speech is impaired is when certain groups of people sue people for saying certain things causing fear amongst the people. No this Capitalisticimperialism... How? if you think we went into Iraq for Oil, your wrong, because since weve been there the US has not recieved a drop of that oil. We dont have a trade agreement with them for oil. They have agreements with China, India and several other Eastern Countries. We are not in charge of Iraq, they make their own decisions, but we as the US Military are there to guide them, to help them out. To train them. Not to rule over them. We may be there a while but not forever. Once they can do things themselves we will be gone. So do you think patriotic Americans who love this country and what it stands for and supports it in whatever it does is a "f***ing hick"? Thats pretty low dude...

[leninrocks244]

I think the liberals have brain washed you. The government does not brain wash the military, only in basic training they brain wash you a bit to get you to work as a unit as a team, to tear you down and build you into a soldier. Your not making any sense either "We went in there for weapons of mass destruction (which WE gave them), but there were none." if we gave them weapons, how come there were none? By the way we did find some weapons, mostly biological weapons. And We didnt give them any because after Desert Storm there were Sanctions on Iraq for weapons and such so I doubt wed give them any if we were trying to stop them from getting some. What your probaly thinking with those weapons is Alqeada. Back in the 70's-80's the russians invaded afghanistan and we gave weapons to the Afghans to help them fend off the rusians. Bush did not come up with "free speech zones" Stuff like that belongs to the Mayor of the City, Bush is not the mayor. He doesnt tell anyone they cant speak their opinion. Only way or free speech is impaired is when certain groups of people sue people for saying certain things causing fear amongst the people. No this Capitalisticimperialism... How? if you think we went into Iraq for Oil, your wrong, because since weve been there the US has not recieved a drop of that oil. We dont have a trade agreement with them for oil. They have agreements with China, India and several other Eastern Countries. We are not in charge of Iraq, they make their own decisions, but we as the US Military are there to guide them, to help them out. To train them. Not to rule over them. We may be there a while but not forever. Once they can do things themselves we will be gone. So do you think patriotic Americans who love this country and what it stands for and supports it in whatever it does is a "f***ing hick"? Thats pretty low dude...

No I'm not brainwashed. Wanna know why? I ask questions. Something you're not allowed to do in the military. And that's bullshit. How come I remember people saying that there were no weapons of mass destruction when the war first started (I was a kid so no I didn't watch CNN)? And who told you all of that? Your commanding officers? The fucking Fascist Bill O' Reilly? You poor, deluded son of a bitch... I have no problem with people who love this country and who want to represent true democratic principles, I just have a problem with people who think it's the greatest nation in the world and people who support wars for nothing. Like you. And again, I'm done trying to argue with brainwashed chimps like you. But hey, stay safe out there. Just because I disagree with everything that comes out of your mouth doesn't mean I want you coming home in a box.

[Hubb]

No I'm not brainwashed. Wanna know why? I ask questions. Something you're not allowed to do in the military. And that's bullshit. How come I remember people saying that there were no weapons of mass destruction when the war first started (I was a kid so no I didn't watch CNN)? And who told you all of that? Your commanding officers? The fucking Fascist Bill O' Reilly? You poor, deluded son of a bitch... I have no problem with people who love this country and who want to represent true democratic principles, I just have a problem with people who think it's the greatest nation in the world and people who support wars for nothing. Like you. And again, I'm done trying to argue with brainwashed chimps like you. But hey, stay safe out there. Just because I disagree with everything that comes out of your mouth doesn't mean I want you coming home in a box.


You know what? You're an idiot. In the time I've been back, I've seen nothing but insults and attacks from you. You have no ability to have any type of intelligent conversation. Calling someone a "chimp" and a "deluded son of a bitch" makes you sound like some dumb kid wearing a Che Guevarra shirt who's in his first semester at a city college. Wanna talk about brainwashed?

Know thyself, Fuckhead.

I meet plenty of people every day who disagree with me and my principles, but you know what? I get along with those people. I don't try to indoctrinate them, and they don't spew their rhetoric at me.

You, on the other hand, have neither the wit nor class to have a mature debate with anyone. And you say you ask questions? No, you aren't. You're spewing your own skewed view of the world. You are also one of the most disrespectful people I've ever come into contact with on the Legion boards. In fact, you're one of the most disrespectful people I've ever come into contact with.

You aren't asking questions, and you sure aren't presenting yourself as an intellect.

You sound like a walking moveon.org talking point. Learn to think for yourself, initiate some self-control, or GTFO of here.

[leninrocks244]

You know what? You're an idiot. In the time I've been back, I've seen nothing but insults and attacks from you. You have no ability to have any type of intelligent conversation. Calling someone a "chimp" and a "deluded son of a bitch" makes you sound like some dumb kid wearing a Che Guevarra shirt who's in his first semester at a city college. Wanna talk about brainwashed?

Know thyself, Fuckhead.

I meet plenty of people every day who disagree with me and my principles, but you know what? I get along with those people. I don't try to indoctrinate them, and they don't spew their rhetoric at me.

You, on the other hand, have neither the wit nor class to have a mature debate with anyone. And you say you ask questions? No, you aren't. You're spewing your own skewed view of the world. You are also one of the most disrespectful people I've ever come into contact with on the Legion boards. In fact, you're one of the most disrespectful people I've ever come into contact with.

You aren't asking questions, and you sure aren't presenting yourself as an intellect.

You sound like a walking moveon.org talking point. Learn to think for yourself, initiate some self-control, or GTFO of here.

Dude, go spew your bullshit to somebody else because I don't give a fuck what you say. For all that I know, you're just another Neo-Con/stranger I met on the Internet.

[The Arbiter]

Wait Lenin are you saying I as a republican, and my views are Naziish? Or are you saying the The Democrats are Naziish? Couse my statement is of what the Democrats are trying to force upon us. And as you can read from that artical Hubb posted, Britain is already refusing surgreys and stuff for smokers. That same thing will happen here in the USA if you elect a democrat. I dont know about you but since the end of World War II, we have been trying to defeat communism because of its wicked ways, but recently the Democrats are trying to bring it into our country, do you think thats a good thing? I think not. I believe we should stick to the CONSTITUTION, NOT CHANGE IT! This country was made because people made their own lives by working hard, raising their OWN families, Supporting their families on their OWN. If you have been watching the news, many of the wacko liberals have been trying to have the government provide everything. They use Welfare as a way to get votes because if they keep giving you money for free would you vote for them? They will say "this is what we want to do for you, only if we win this election so vote for us!" Also they are trying to take our own kids away from us, They think the government should raise the children and that parents are wrong in raising them how they want to. The Liberals are trying to take everything America is away from us. I took an Oath for my Country that says
"I __________ do Solemnly Swear that I will SUPPORT and DEFEND the Consitution of the United States agianst ALL enemies, foriegn and Domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the Orders of the Officers appointed over me, according to the regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me GOD.

I fight to protect what America stands for. For all you hard working people who make an honest living, who raise their families and provide for them. There is a war going on, not just in Iraq and Afghanistan, but here in our own country. Obama says he will pull out all our troops from Iraq qithin 30 days. Does he realize that would be a huge mistake for our own national Security? There would be ahuge power vacum in Iraq because the Iraqi military does not have the amount of troops and experience it needs to continue and it will collapse. Countries like Iran have said they will fill that gap, Iran will invade and use it agianst us. It will be used as a huge breeding ground for terrorism. They will beable to launch many new attacks agianst the USA as well as the rest of the world. You think this may be nonsense, but the terrorist themselves have made this claim in their videos and audio tapes. We are WINNING in Iraq. wether you believe it or not. There has been alot of progress there and the attacks are becoming fewer. Military Intel has recovered Journals of Alqeada in Iraq that have said for instance, this one insurgent was in a battalion(170 people or so) who came into Iraq and within several months himself and just about 20 others were left because the US Military have either killed or Captured most of them. These reports are coming from all over Iraq. Many of the Tribal leaders who were with Al queada have turned agianst them because of the harm and bad intentions they have and they began turning them into US and Iraqi Forces. The Iraqi government is making progress, yes it is slow, but its going. The US goverment took over 10 years after indepence was won to have a government set up. Iraq has done it in less than 5 years, they just have to fix some issues. The Iraqi people love us, of course the liberal media will not tell you that, because THEY WANT US TO LOSE! It would have been nice if there was no war, but sometimes you just gotta do it, appeasing the enemy never works, they will keep demanding more and more. I fully support our mission in Iraq and it is something I am willing to lay my life down for because if we fail, our country is at jeopardy. There has to be sacrifice, war is rough, people die. As an American soldiers, we know what we are fighting for, we volunteered full knowing the price we may have to pay. I would surely like to be home with my family and friends but we have a Job to do and its a sacrifice we have to make. Never forget that our soldiers are fighting and dieing for you so you can live a happy and peaceful life with your family, your friends, so you can have a nice comfortable job with no worries that today might be your last. We go on 1 year deployments over there. When we go the last time we see our family and friends is when we are getting on that plane, for 4081 soldiers/sailors/airmen and Marines, that was the last time their families ever saw them agian. Its hard to say good bye when you know this may be the last time. Remember the sacrifices they make for you everyday. I think Im done with this post now... This is long.... sorry.....
I <3 Snickers.

[The Arbiter]

No I'm not brainwashed. Wanna know why? I ask questions. Something you're not allowed to do in the military. And that's bullshit. How come I remember people saying that there were no weapons of mass destruction when the war first started (I was a kid so no I didn't watch CNN)? And who told you all of that? Your commanding officers? The fucking Fascist Bill O' Reilly? You poor, deluded son of a bitch... I have no problem with people who love this country and who want to represent true democratic principles, I just have a problem with people who think it's the greatest nation in the world and people who support wars for nothing. Like you. And again, I'm done trying to argue with brainwashed chimps like you. But hey, stay safe out there. Just because I disagree with everything that comes out of your mouth doesn't mean I want you coming home in a box.
Our country IS the GREATEST country!! I LOVE America and so should you. I hate all of you anti-American Americans who think you're being cool by rebelling against your own country. You're not. If you don't like America, you can move. Bill O'Reilly is an intelligent man, no matter what you think. Also, the ENTIRE UN thought that there were WMD's in Iraq. So don't go there. Also, you compared Republicans to Nazis. Are you crazy?

[leninrocks244]

Our country IS the GREATEST country!! I LOVE America and so should you. I hate all of you anti-American Americans who think you're being cool by rebelling against your own country. You're not. If you don't like America, you can move. Bill O'Reilly is an intelligent man, no matter what you think. Also, the ENTIRE UN thought that there were WMD's in Iraq. So don't go there. Also, you compared Republicans to Nazis. Are you crazy?

People like you are the reason why the world hates us. I rebel against my country because Washington is run by a chimp who can't even pronounce nuclear and a fascist who never wears a smile, not because I want to look cool. That may be the case for alot of kids my age, but not me bro. And I never said that I hated America, I like it. It's my home, but it's just land. Blind patriotism leads to war and fucked up foreign relations. Bill O'Reilly is a sex offender and a bigot. Yeah, there's my point. The whole UN THOUGHT that there were WMD's in Iraq, they didn't know 100%. This war isn't even legal, but the whole world is scared shitless because they don't know whether Bush is going to nuke them for not letting him invade Iraq to make daddy proud so they just went along with it. A majority of the Republicans that I've met don't believe in the 1st Amendment, so on the political scale yes. But when it comes to mass murder and genocide, hell no.

[The Arbiter]

LOL. You are brightening up my night. This is funny, eh? *sarcasm* People like me, patriots, are the reason the world hates us... *sarcasm* The world hates us because they are jealous of us.

[Snickers]

Thanks you Hubb and Arbiter. Lenin I do ask many questions. In the military you are aloud to ask questions. We do have a civilian side of life as well. We dont quite live the military life day in and day out 24/7. We get time off and in that time we can do whatever we want as long as our conduct follows the UCMJ and the Regulations prescribed by the Army. Service Members can get involved with protests and political things, we just cant wear our uniforms or make it look like a military sponsered event. And if you think my Commanding Officers are liers? Your Wrong, because if you read the intel reports, and see pictures of them... you tend to think they were there. I believe they found 512 WMDs mostly biological. They have also found evidence they may have sent the rest to Syria and surround countries. Now if your calling us republicans and true patriots here Nazis and Communist etc, look at what you named yourself. Lenin? Is that the founder of Socialism/Communism? And Im assuming from that you like those ideals, and they seem to go right along with the democrats.... If you really ask me. These anti war nut jobs are really just a bunch of traitors. They undermine the US at every corner aiding our enemy politically and eventually to have us lose the war and let them win and your one of these nut jobs. If you dont like us protecting your freedoms, go to another country like maybe... Iran? Good luck there, theyll kill you if you disagree with them. So be grateful people like me stand up so you can rant and complain about how horrble this country is and how our military is a bunch of terrorist and all that BS. They died, so you can bash them and degrade them you selfish prick. I've lost many friends over there. Not a single one of them would ever regret it.

[Zagato]

Canada <3's You, United States!
Do you <3 us? :D

[The Arbiter]

Very well put, Snickers.

[Hubb]

People like you are the reason why the world hates us. I rebel against my country because Washington is run by a chimp who can't even pronounce nuclear and a fascist who never wears a smile, not because I want to look cool. That may be the case for alot of kids my age, but not me bro. And I never said that I hated America, I like it. It's my home, but it's just land. Blind patriotism leads to war and fucked up foreign relations. Bill O'Reilly is a sex offender and a bigot. Yeah, there's my point. The whole UN THOUGHT that there were WMD's in Iraq, they didn't know 100%. This war isn't even legal, but the whole world is scared shitless because they don't know whether Bush is going to nuke them for not letting him invade Iraq to make daddy proud so they just went along with it. A majority of the Republicans that I've met don't believe in the 1st Amendment, so on the political scale yes. But when it comes to mass murder and genocide, hell no.

Wow. You really are brainwashed.

By the way, why do you keep bringing up Bill O'Reilly? Is that the only Republican talking head you can think of in a petty, impotent attempt to group Conservatives into your little box?

Also, you said "a majority of the Republicans I've met don't believe in the 1st Amendment."

You don't know any Republicans. I would almost guarantee that. Go back to your bedroom in the basement of your parents' house and watch Aqua Teen Hunger Force. Better yet, go try and get through 20 pages of an Al Franken book (Good luck with that).

Freedom of Speech is a beautiful thing. It allows children like yourself to spit talking points they get on the internet without ever presenting anything as fact. You can use free speech as your chance to act like an idiot, and see how many people you provoke. After you act like an idiot, you don't have to worry about any retaliation from your government.

Thank you for your rhetoric, but it's past your bedtime. Here comes your mom! Hide!

[Hubb]

Canada <3's You, United States!
Do you <3 us? :D

LOL. We <3 you back! :disco:

[Snickers]

Genocide? Are you saying that we are comitting Genocide? ooooo man that really pisses me off... Our troops do so many good things over there. Kids can actually go to school and get educated now. People can actually vote to. Did you know that? They actually have freedoms now that we are there. Just imagine how many more people would be dead if we hadnt gone there. Saddam was mass murdering people by the THOUSANDS. And we as soldiers try to prevent civilian casualties as much as possible, we dont intentionally go in to kill them all like Obama and Clinton and all those looneys say we are. Accidents happen, Civilians get caught in the cross fire, You cant prevent it. Innocents will die. And most of the civilians that are killed supposedly by us are actually from the insurgents, They use them as a shield as sorts. Send them out into the middle of a fire fight to get shot and then the terrorist can say "O look the americans killed civilians!" And our liberal media buys into it aiding the terrorist. So somone who has never been in those situations like you will never know what its like. Therefore you can say anything about what really happens.

[The Arbiter]

Conservative Republicans, unite! :grouphug: lol

[leninrocks244]

Genocide? Are you saying that we are comitting Genocide? ooooo man that really pisses me off... Our troops do so many good things over there. Kids can actually go to school and get educated now. People can actually vote to. Did you know that? They actually have freedoms now that we are there. Just imagine how many more people would be dead if we hadnt gone there. Saddam was mass murdering people by the THOUSANDS. And we as soldiers try to prevent civilian casualties as much as possible, we dont intentionally go in to kill them all like Obama and Clinton and all those looneys say we are. Accidents happen, Civilians get caught in the cross fire, You cant prevent it. Innocents will die. And most of the civilians that are killed supposedly by us are actually from the insurgents, They use them as a shield as sorts. Send them out into the middle of a fire fight to get shot and then the terrorist can say "O look the americans killed civilians!" And our liberal media buys into it aiding the terrorist. So somone who has never been in those situations like you will never know what its like. Therefore you can say anything about what really happens.

Oh my fucking god, you are slow as fuck. If you could read, you would see that I'm not saying that Republicans support genocide nor is the US Army conducting genocidal acts in Iraq. Yeah, alot of good things. That explains those photos of imprisoned Iraqis being tortured and stripped down naked by troops. I agree that the only good outcome of the whole war is overthrowing Saddam, but people are still dying. It's a lose-lose scenario if you really look at it.

[The Arbiter]

leninrocks244 = ignorant

[leninrocks244]

Wow. You really are brainwashed.

By the way, why do you keep bringing up Bill O'Reilly? Is that the only Republican talking head you can think of in a petty, impotent attempt to group Conservatives into your little box?

Also, you said "a majority of the Republicans I've met don't believe in the 1st Amendment."

You don't know any Republicans. I would almost guarantee that. Go back to your bedroom in the basement of your parents' house and watch Aqua Teen Hunger Force. Better yet, go try and get through 20 pages of an Al Franken book (Good luck with that).

Freedom of Speech is a beautiful thing. It allows children like yourself to spit talking points they get on the internet without ever presenting anything as fact. You can use free speech as your chance to act like an idiot, and see how many people you provoke. After you act like an idiot, you don't have to worry about any retaliation from your government.

Thank you for your rhetoric, but it's past your bedtime. Here comes your mom! Hide!

Not really, I was merely responding to Arbiter's comment about Bill O'Reilly.

Yeah, I know a few Republicans. Associates from school mostly and people that used to work with my dad. And yeah, I probably would do that except change ATHF to South Park or something less shitty, seeing that I am only 15and I don't have a job or a family to support. Douche

[leninrocks244]

Thanks you Hubb and Arbiter. Lenin I do ask many questions. In the military you are aloud to ask questions. We do have a civilian side of life as well. We dont quite live the military life day in and day out 24/7. We get time off and in that time we can do whatever we want as long as our conduct follows the UCMJ and the Regulations prescribed by the Army. Service Members can get involved with protests and political things, we just cant wear our uniforms or make it look like a military sponsered event. And if you think my Commanding Officers are liers? Your Wrong, because if you read the intel reports, and see pictures of them... you tend to think they were there. I believe they found 512 WMDs mostly biological. They have also found evidence they may have sent the rest to Syria and surround countries. Now if your calling us republicans and true patriots here Nazis and Communist etc, look at what you named yourself. Lenin? Is that the founder of Socialism/Communism? And Im assuming from that you like those ideals, and they seem to go right along with the democrats.... If you really ask me. These anti war nut jobs are really just a bunch of traitors. They undermine the US at every corner aiding our enemy politically and eventually to have us lose the war and let them win and your one of these nut jobs. If you dont like us protecting your freedoms, go to another country like maybe... Iran? Good luck there, theyll kill you if you disagree with them. So be grateful people like me stand up so you can rant and complain about how horrble this country is and how our military is a bunch of terrorist and all that BS. They died, so you can bash them and degrade them you selfish prick. I've lost many friends over there. Not a single one of them would ever regret it.

Ah.... well then you're just ignorant then.

Lenin was basically the George Washington of the USSR. Karl Marx founded modern communism. As I said, you're just really, really slow. Communists=Democrats???? Yeah, that must be why they're in the electoral process instead of conducting violent revolutions.... Or maybe that's why no other Democratic president in history has ever banned freedom of speech or centralized all of America's biggest industries... So people who want to end the "war about nothing" are traitors? It's our right to protest, and it's our right to freedom of speech. We're all patriots, but unlike you we actually have common sense and thought. Wow.... you think we're aiding the terrorists? You're fucked up in the head, man. What fucking rights are you protecting? I would agree if we were being invaded, but we're far from our home soil. Keeping a foreign country democratic isn't protecting our rights. You're protecting their rights. We have an excellent defense system and we're on our toes, so I highly doubt that there's going to be another terrorist attack that's going to destroy Hickville, USA. It's time to bring them home and end this bullshit war. I'm not saying this country is horrible. BUSH is horrible. You're just an ignorant moron.

[Snickers]

How is a lose-lose scenario? Especially since we are winning? We have the AQI on the run in Iraq. We are constantly beating the insurgents more and more. Their numbers are dwindling. If we keep on going after them within a couple years they will be gone. You are quick to asume defeat, of course thats all you liberals want anyways. You want America to Lose because you hate this country.

Now about the Iraqi prisoners, Yes its a shame that happened, a few soldiers screwed up big time. But stuff like that never happens. You cant blame one screw up on everyone and say the US Military is horrible. That just means Somone failed to do their Job. The soldiers that did that are now in prison. They paid the penalty for their actions. So dont blame it on the rest of us noble soldiers who are doing whats right.

[Snickers]

I think you have clearly forgotten all about 9/11. That hit OUR home soil. And the terrorist in IRAQ have VOWED to attack us here agian. The terrorist are in Iraq now so thats where we will fight. We vowed to destroy Al qeada and if they are in Iraq then thats where we will gith them. If we allow them to have a safe haven then attacks here will happen. Ever wonder why there hasnt been any attacks? Because we going after them so they cant plan or carry out attacks in other countries. Im not ignorant either. I actually look up stuff and read the news so I know what Im talking about. While you just use what you hear from people. Democrats base their ideals on lies, not facts. Thats why Democrats cant win debates. They are afraid of the truth.

You dont know what really happens over there until youve put on those boots, grab that rifle and patrol the streets. So until youve actually gone over you cant talk crap about it because the Liberal media wont tell you whats really happening. They wont tell you the new schools being built there. They wont tell you that the Iraqi Civilians jumped a bomb to save our soldiers. They wont tell you how the Iraqi people love us. Everywhere our soldiers go there they are greeted with great respect and thanks for they do. The Iraqi people are more greatful then most of America. Thats pretty sad to me. So Dont believe everything you hear from the media, they try to present it as fact when it is false. So do some of your own research from liable sources, then we'll have a good educated debate and maybe youll learn something in the end of this.

[leninrocks244]

How is a lose-lose scenario? Especially since we are winning? We have the AQI on the run in Iraq. We are constantly beating the insurgents more and more. Their numbers are dwindling. If we keep on going after them within a couple years they will be gone. You are quick to asume defeat, of course thats all you liberals want anyways. You want America to Lose because you hate this country.

Now about the Iraqi prisoners, Yes its a shame that happened, a few soldiers screwed up big time. But stuff like that never happens. You cant blame one screw up on everyone and say the US Military is horrible. That just means Somone failed to do their Job. The soldiers that did that are now in prison. They paid the penalty for their actions. So dont blame it on the rest of us noble soldiers who are doing whats right.

Well, if we didn't go into Iraq, people would die. Since we did go into Iraq, people are still dying and nothing is getting done. You really think winning in Iraq will stop terrorism forever? No. It'll only encourage the Taliban and others in the Middle East to hate America even more. Secondly, you can't stop terrorism. There's always some nutcase out there who has nothing else to live for will blow themselves up for stupid political and religious reasons. I guarantee you that even if we "win" in Iraq, within the next 10 years there's going to be another bombing somewhere. So there's your whole mission down the toilet.


You know what? There's no point in arguing with any of you morons. I have my beliefs and you have yours. Nothing is going to change that, no matter how long this goes on. So fuck it, I'm done with you losers. Your brains just can't comprehend the meaning of freedom, but that's cool. Now I'm going to bed because I have to drive 7 hours straight up into Wisconsin and I'm getting up at 5 so later.

[Zagato]

I've looked over this arguement since the start and I have determined that both sides have problems.

Though a certain side has the bigger problems: Difficulty for me to determine his position.
I really don't know what he wants because his case jumps all over the place on the issues.

[Hubb]

Not really, I was merely responding to Arbiter's comment about Bill O'Reilly.

Yeah, I know a few Republicans. Associates from school mostly and people that used to work with my dad. And yeah, I probably would do that except change ATHF to South Park or something less shitty, seeing that I am only 15and I don't have a job or a family to support. Douche


Yeah, I knew you were just a dirty mouth little kid. Wait until you're older, and have more responsibility. Wait until you have to work for what you have, instead of having your mommy and daddy get it for you. You've had no experience on which to base your theories of what life should be like.

You've got a lot of growing up to do, kid. Wait untill you have to deal with real life, then come back and tell me if you are still able to uphold your high and mighty ideals.

Tell your mom I said Hi.

[bigdaddychacha]

If the next Republican presidential candidate happens to suffer from Gulf War Syndrome, is the liberal establishment going to say that such a disease doesn't exist and that the guy is imagining it all? What a crock.

Of course not. Everyone in America has known about PTSD in Iraq vets since Desert Storm. I don't think any liberals would go that far into reality-denying, but I'll make you a promise that none of us will if the Republicans will apologize for financing that Swift Boaters For Truth crap about Kerry!

McCain didn't lie! The dumb Korean is the one whose lying. It's obvious. The BBC is a liberal anti-American newspaper, North Korea is an anti-American country, so it just makes sense that McCain's the one lying? Anyway, of course McCain was tortured in the POW Camp, how can Duyet say he never tortured any prisoner. That's just dumb. Of course they did, that's what POW camps are for. It makes me sick to see that article printed.

Uh, be careful throwing words like "dumb" around...McCain fought in Vietnam, not Korea. He crashed over North Vietnam, not North Korea. Tran Trong Duyet is incredibly obviously a Vietnamese name. Opinions are usually stronger when they sound correctly informed...!

Whatever, Vietnamese. It makes no difference.
Uhh, not to flame a member of the alliance that I'm ambassador to, but are you excessively ignorant, or just extremely racist? Say that sentence to John McCain or ANY veteran of either of those wars and I bet cash-money he would slug you in the face. I've lived in South Korea for the past year and I'm currently on vacation in Hanoi, Vietnam (I go back to Korea tomorrow!) and I can attest that THERE'S A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE (Also, there's still a world of difference between North Korea and Vietnam, for those who would point out that South Korea and Vietnam are obviously so different.)

You're not going to believe this, but today, I took a taxi from my hotel and went to the Hanoi Hilton, Hoa Lo Prison, and took the tour. I took a shit-ton of pictures, too. I even took a picture of (who else?) John McCain visiting the prison in the year 2000. It's strange that I happened to see this conversation today, of all days, but I'm not lying, I was just at the place which is strange!

Genocide? Are you saying that we are comitting Genocide? ooooo man that really pisses me off... Our troops do so many good things over there. Kids can actually go to school and get educated now. People can actually vote to. Did you know that? They actually have freedoms now that we are there. Just imagine how many more people would be dead if we hadnt gone there. Saddam was mass murdering people by the THOUSANDS. And we as soldiers try to prevent civilian casualties as much as possible, we dont intentionally go in to kill them all like Obama and Clinton and all those looneys say we are. Accidents happen, Civilians get caught in the cross fire, You cant prevent it. Innocents will die. And most of the civilians that are killed supposedly by us are actually from the insurgents, They use them as a shield as sorts. Send them out into the middle of a fire fight to get shot and then the terrorist can say "O look the americans killed civilians!" And our liberal media buys into it aiding the terrorist. So somone who has never been in those situations like you will never know what its like. Therefore you can say anything about what really happens.

I should say tl:dr, but I won't lie--I read it. Thousands of people died under Saddam, but at a much slower rate than under American "assistance," under which Iraqi civilians have died by the HUNDREDS of thousands (check the facts for yourself.) Also, in regards to this section:

Genocide? Are you saying that we are comitting Genocide? ooooo man that really pisses me off... Our troops do so many good things over there. Kids can actually go to school and get educated now.

Uh, children can't "go to school and get educated" when they're getting gang-raped by a bunch of Marines while their entire family is simultaneously being executed in front of them right before they, too, are then executed. Also, the battle for Fallujah is generally recognized as a particularly indiscriminate affair, with regards to civilian casualties.


How is a lose-lose scenario? Especially since we are winning? We have the AQI on the run in Iraq. We are constantly beating the insurgents more and more.

That's exactly what they were saying about Vietnam...right up until the Tet Offensive!

Their numbers are dwindling. If we keep on going after them within a couple years they will be gone.

You're so right! If we can just find it in ourselves to keep killing them, eventually, their fathers, brothers, sons, and grandsons will forgive us and thanks us for their newfound freedom!

You are quick to asume defeat, of course thats all you liberals want anyways. You want America to Lose because you hate this country.

That's called a straw-man argument. You're setting up the weakest imaginable version of the opposing argument and attacking that because you can't deal with what he's actually saying. If you love your country but disagree with what it is doing, you have a DUTY to oppose that action and try to end it. I know you don't like talking about Nazis because it makes you feel bad because you worry that there might be a shade of truth in it, but suppose for example that a completely patriotic German man of military age loved his country dearly, but had some issues with the mass slaughter of Jews...If he argued against that policy, a person in the Nazi military might have dismissed him saying, "He hates the Motherland and he just wants us to lose! Why do you hate Germany so much, pansy?" Now, does opposing a horrific action being perpetrated by your own country really = hating everything about your own country? C'mon!

Yeah, I knew you were just a dirty mouth little kid. Wait until you're older, and have more responsibility. Wait until you have to work for what you have, instead of having your mommy and daddy get it for you. You've had no experience on which to base your theories of what life should be like.

You've got a lot of growing up to do, kid. Wait untill you have to deal with real life, then come back and tell me if you are still able to uphold your high and mighty ideals.

Uh, I'm an adult living on my own with more responsibility than I particularly care to have and I still manage to keep my liberal ideals somehow...strange, I must be an anomaly!

-In conclusion (and, more importantly, back on topic), Do I believe this Vietnamese guy who says nobody got tortured?
No, he's probably telling the same sort of lies that people like George Bush and Don Rumsfeld have to tell so that he can sleep at night. At the same time, it's possible that this guy was genuinely a good guy in a bad place who may have done McCain some niceties while other people were busy torturing him; things are rarely as simple as All of One Side=Good, All of Other Side=Bad.

-Do I believe that American soldiers never tortured or illegally executed NVA/VC prisoners who they captured, similarly to what the North allegedly did to McCain?
Absolutely, yes.

-Do I believe that war is always ugly and Vietnam was an especially complicated situation on both sides of the battle which, while it doesn't excuse torture on either side, provides some perspective about when it does happen?
Yes.

[The Corporal]

Well, if we didn't go into Iraq, people would die. Since we did go into Iraq, people are still dying and nothing is getting done. You really think winning in Iraq will stop terrorism forever? No. It'll only encourage the Taliban and others in the Middle East to hate America even more. Secondly, you can't stop terrorism. There's always some nutcase out there who has nothing else to live for will blow themselves up for stupid political and religious reasons. I guarantee you that even if we "win" in Iraq, within the next 10 years there's going to be another bombing somewhere. So there's your whole mission down the toilet.


You know what? There's no point in arguing with any of you morons. I have my beliefs and you have yours. Nothing is going to change that, no matter how long this goes on. So fuck it, I'm done with you losers. Your brains just can't comprehend the meaning of freedom, but that's cool. Now I'm going to bed because I have to drive 7 hours straight up into Wisconsin and I'm getting up at 5 so later.
So you're saying it's better for Iraqi civilians to be nerve-gassed than to be massacred in droves by the insurgency? That's real nice of you. And that defeatist attitude, "why fight for our freedom when Achmed the Dead Terrorist is just going to blow himself up in a mall anyways" is the way liberals give political aid to our enemies.

I don't think any of us here suggest that liberals or the Democratic party is in actual collusion with terrorists, that would be wrong to assert; however, by publicly doubting our chances of winning and by publicly spewing hateful comments towards our own troops you give aid and comfort to the enemy. Intentional or not, that's a little thing we call 'treason.'

[Snickers]

Big daddy how do you know we kill "HUNDREDS of Thousands" of civilians? The civilians that do die are from those insurgents. And a majority of these insurgents are from Syria and Iran, Hence why they are called insurgents... they came from different places and infiltrated Iraq... We dont kill civilians, and your probaly thinking of the Haditha incident correct? You dont know what happens over there, the situations we get put into. When youve got a crowd of people all around you chanting whatever and gun shots rang out from an AK, your first instict is to take cover and return fire. You are fighting for your own survival over there. Odds are some of those civilians were probaly armed, but the insurgents cause they are smart people probaly took the weapons away to make it look like civilian casualties. It happens frequently. They also like ot hide their dead as well so we cant confirm if we got them or not, then a few days later the media hops on it saying another civilian was found dead.

And the Iraqi children can go to school now by the way, Ive seen it. The Iraqi population is actually thriving now. They dont live in as much fear worrying about if one of sadams goons are going break into their house torture them and then shoot them.

So big daddy, Until youve actually walked the streets of baghdad and Fallejuah(which is actually one of the most pro american cities in Iraq now) and haditha and all those cities, you will never know whats truly going on because your liberal media wont tell you the facts so you cant talk shit about what happens there couse you dont know!

[Zagato]

I don't know about the rest of you guys who are sort of in the middle ground of this debate, but I'm pretty horrified with what I'm reading here.

[Snickers]

Which parts are horrifying?

[bigdaddychacha]

Big daddy how do you know we kill "HUNDREDS of Thousands" of civilians? The civilians that do die are from those insurgents. And a majority of these insurgents are from Syria and Iran, Hence why they are called insurgents... they came from different places and infiltrated Iraq... We dont kill civilians, and your probaly thinking of the Haditha incident correct? You dont know what happens over there, the situations we get put into. When youve got a crowd of people all around you chanting whatever and gun shots rang out from an AK, your first instict is to take cover and return fire. You are fighting for your own survival over there. Odds are some of those civilians were probaly armed, but the insurgents cause they are smart people probaly took the weapons away to make it look like civilian casualties. It happens frequently. They also like ot hide their dead as well so we cant confirm if we got them or not, then a few days later the media hops on it saying another civilian was found dead.

And the Iraqi children can go to school now by the way, Ive seen it. The Iraqi population is actually thriving now. They dont live in as much fear worrying about if one of sadams goons are going break into their house torture them and then shoot them.

So big daddy, Until youve actually walked the streets of baghdad and Fallejuah(which is actually one of the most pro american cities in Iraq now) and haditha and all those cities, you will never know whats truly going on because your liberal media wont tell you the facts so you cant talk shit about what happens there couse you dont know!

Don't play the whole "You can't possibly know because you haven't been" card with me. My roommate from last year fought in Afghanistan and my boss for a year and a half had spent a couple tours in Iraq and did some time in Afghanistan somewhere in the mix. I've talked at length with both of them about their experiences and we all remain friends and still talk sometimes online, although I'm out of the country now. Yes, there are some good things that happen there, as the Right Wing Media never fails to focus exclusively on.

The one specific incident I mentioned was, yes, the Haditha Massacre, but you and I both know that it was not an isolated incident, like it was the only time American soldiers did something wrong. Right Wingers always say, "Oh, they were just some bad apples, nobody else does that stuff," but I feel strongly that history will eventually show that such tragedies, although not always as grisly and downright disgusting as Haditha, are really more like standard operating procedure rather than isolated incidents that only bring punishment and condemnation when there happens to be undeniable proof of their occurance.

As far as the insurgents killing civilians, yes, they do that, too. But you're not taking the next logical step and asking yourself, "Why are there insurgents?" The ONLY reason there are insurgents is because we invaded them: ergo, the USA and our Coalition of the Willing are both directly AND indirectly responsible for the death of, yes, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

You say people don't worry that one of Saddam's goons will break in and torture them, but in a way they still do; if they're Shia, they still have to worry about Sunni fighters doing just that, although those Sunnis aren't exactly working for Saddam anymore. And vise-versa for the Sunnis as well, they have to worry about the Shia. Both have to worry about the occupiers, too, even if everyone plays nice when soldiers happen to be around.

[Lincongrad]

I'm just gonna put my opinion on this out there, since we seem to be moving more into the realm of the wars.

Should we have gone into Afghanistan? Yes. Absolutely, we needed to hunt down the people sheltering Osama, kill em, and we had plenty of money and resources to do so.

Should we have gone into Iraq? Absolutely not. Although the Iraq war is completely morally justified and a very noble cause, we simply didn't have the resources to fight both the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Maybe we should have waited until we finished up in Afghanistan, and then hit up Saddam. I think that would have worked out fine and we could have begun with something like Petraeus' troop surges instead of having to use them as an emergency strategy.

Now the real question I'm interested in is this: should we stay in Iraq? And I must say, I'm not sure of the answer. If we leave, we have a possible anarchy, which most likely will result in a muslim state similar to the Taliban (although it's possible that if we leave in the right way we can prevent both this and the anarchy... a task which I think would be impossible for the current administration. But I digress.) So obviously if we leave there is the problem of terror squads taking over, and essentially Iraq becoming a state of warlords. If we stay, we have similar problems. The insurgency is a hydra. For every Iraqi we kill, we breed several new insurgents. That's how war works. Brothers, fathers, sons, they get pissed and there is a large chance that they'll decide to act upon their anger, joining up with the insurgency. That's a reality of life. So every time we kill some of them, we spawn more people willing to join up with Al Queda or whomever. So staying is obviously a problem too. In addition, civilian casualties right now (from American collateral damage and insurgent terror squads both) is very similar to the deaths under Saddam's regime. I'm not saying whether this is good or bad, since those dying now are dying as a result of a fight for freedom, I'm just stating the facts.


I'd just like to make the note that anyone accusing liberals of treason for not supporting the war is completely and totally fullovit. Our democracy was built on the rights of freedom of speech, and opinion, and when people oppose the war it is their duty to speak out. When people either oppose or support, the government should listen to what they're saying and factor that into their decisions to continue or break off the war.

Additional note: I almost respect some of the insurgents. If I was an Iraqi, uneducated about the reasons for the war, and someone dropped a bomb on my brother/father/son/whatever, never mind the reasons, I'd join up in one of the official insurgent groups, most likely. I suspect many of you would do the same. But the terror squads, suicide bombers, those who target civilians, etc, make me sick.

[Snickers]

Its not really the Iraqi people who are fighting us. Its foriegn fighters from Mainly Iran and a bit from Syria. What the military is trying to do is cut off Insurgents from entering the country and then sweep up whats already there. The Iraqi people are tired of the Insurgents causing this commotion. What the liberals tend to focus on is why we went there and just use that agianst the war. Thing is, is we are there now and we cant change why we went there. So drop the whole we shouldnt have gone there in the first place, we had no way of knowing, even your beloved Hillary clinton voted for it, so did most of the Congress and Senate so you cant just blame President Bush. We need to focus on the Present on what we can do. The Mission there has changed from the beginning of the war. Our mission now is the secure and set up a Government there that can sustain themselves, build up the Iraqi military so they can protect themselves. Once we have that all established we will beable to leave SAFELY. Why Accept defeat when we are close to winning? I dont know about you but Id rather not have America lose another war, it shows that we are weak, and if other nations view us as weak... then bad things tend to happen... So lets all just support this thing and give the troops the resources and support they need to finish the mission. O that brings up another thing. People always say they support the troops but not the war... It doesnt make sense, this War is their Mission and not supporting the war doesnt show you support the troops, because They are fighting this thing to WIN and to complete the mission, But you anti war people want them to lose the war. So how are you supporting them? Think about that will you?

[Zagato]

O that brings up another thing. People always say they support the troops but not the war... It doesnt make sense, this War is their Mission and not supporting the war doesnt show you support the troops, because They are fighting this thing to WIN and to complete the mission, But you anti war people want them to lose the war. So how are you supporting them? Think about that will you?

I support the troops, but I don't support the war. It's quite simple.
I support the troops because they're fighting to survive and protect the innocent. If I said I didn't support the troops, that'd be like saying I think the troops are blood thirsty invaders. It's the same as my support for when the troops were in Vietnam. I support their survival for an unjust war. Their government made the mistake and it shouldn't be the fault of the troops.

You would think such a question would be more clear than "Do you support the war?"
I support rebuilding Iraq, but I don't support the 'war' of the so called WMD stash. Now that that war idea crashed and burned, what so called war is going on in Iraq right now? Insurgency? That's something no one can win.

[Lincongrad]

Actually there's a fallacy in what you said, Snickers. The Iraqis are providing the insurgents, they're simply snapped up by military trainers from other countries. The ones organizing and exploiting the anger of the Iraqi people are foreign but it's still the Iraqis dying.

[Hubb]

The one specific incident I mentioned was, yes, the Haditha Massacre, but you and I both know that it was not an isolated incident, like it was the only time American soldiers did something wrong. Right Wingers always say, "Oh, they were just some bad apples, nobody else does that stuff," but I feel strongly that history will eventually show that such tragedies, although not always as grisly and downright disgusting as Haditha, are really more like standard operating procedure rather than isolated incidents that only bring punishment and condemnation when there happens to be undeniable proof of their occurance.

Yeah, all of those guys have had their charges dropped and only one, SSgt. Wuterich, has had his trial date postponed. I'm much more confident in a military investigation of the facts than your opinion of the events, or mine for that matter. Think Murtha will apologize? Doubt it, since he's fueled by typical liberal arrogance.

As far as the insurgents killing civilians, yes, they do that, too. But you're not taking the next logical step and asking yourself, "Why are there insurgents?" The ONLY reason there are insurgents is because we invaded them: ergo, the USA and our Coalition of the Willing are both directly AND indirectly responsible for the death of, yes, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

Le sigh. Actually, the reason why there are insurgents: 1. Iran (and their proxy, Syria)

The components, funding, and training of the terrorists....yes, they're terrorists, comes primarily from the Iranian Revolutionary Guard and Hezbollah, who are doing their best to destabilize the region.

Truthfully, you skipped over, quite adeptly, I might add, the discussion about terrorists killing innocent civilians. The "why" in this point isn't as important as the "how."

"How" they kill innocent civilians is more important in some instances than "why." I'm sure if a terrorist pointed a gun at my head, or threatened my family, I wouldn't be worried about why he was doing it. I'd simply be worried about keeping my family alive. I'm sure you feel the same way.

Sometimes stopping the "how" is paramount to finding out the "why." Not always, but sometimes.

[bigdaddychacha]

Yeah, all of those guys have had their charges dropped and only one, SSgt. Wuterich, has had his trial date postponed. I'm much more confident in a military investigation of the facts than your opinion of the events, or mine for that matter. Think Murtha will apologize? Doubt it, since he's fueled by typical liberal arrogance.

You're confident in the military investigating itself? Are you crazy? "Hmm, did we commit a war crime? Let us think about that for a second: How about No!" I'm glad to hear that you trust a military investigation more than your own interpretation of the facts, that establishes the type of mindset I'm debating with here! If you don't even believe in your own opinions whenever they happen to clash with what the American military says, why am I even trying to convince you of anything?

Just what are you trying to say then about the Haditha Incident? Liberals made it up? The soldiers who testified against their comrades fabricated everything? Actually, I should mention that we've all gotten our facts confused and the Haditha Massacre was the time that Marines attacked civilians at an intersection. The incident I had originally mentioned involving the rape of a 14 year old girl and the massacre of her entire family, was a different incident; regardless, both illustrate the point that we aren't just doing good things over there.


Le sigh. Actually, the reason why there are insurgents: 1. Iran (and their proxy, Syria)

The components, funding, and training of the terrorists....yes, they're terrorists, comes primarily from the Iranian Revolutionary Guard and Hezbollah, who are doing their best to destabilize the region.

Truthfully, you skipped over, quite adeptly, I might add, the discussion about terrorists killing innocent civilians. The "why" in this point isn't as important as the "how."

"How" they kill innocent civilians is more important in some instances than "why." I'm sure if a terrorist pointed a gun at my head, or threatened my family, I wouldn't be worried about why he was doing it. I'd simply be worried about keeping my family alive. I'm sure you feel the same way.

Sometimes stopping the "how" is paramount to finding out the "why." Not always, but sometimes.

You aren't very clear about the distinction between "the why and the how," which you seem to think is of crucial importance. Who cares how they kill them? IEDs, beheadings, firing squads, torture, sniping; outside of the varying levels of unpleasantness, "the how" is completely incidental. "The why" is the only thing that can bring a stop to it or help us find a solution, so it matters infinitely more than "the how."

Also, when you say "terrorists," you need to be a helluva lot more specific. Who get's training from the Iranians and Hezbullah? The Mahdi Army? The Saddam Loyalists? The Sunni Insurgency? The Shia Death Squads? The Iraqi government forces? You've oversimplafied your argument to the point that I can't even tell who you're talking about anymore: All of the sides are killing innocent civilians, so you need to be more specific. Clearly, just calling anyone who kills civilians "a terrorist" doesn't cover all of the relevant distinctions, so stop being so reductive.

Also, so what if Iran and Syria are training terrorists? They wouldn't be doing such a thing to destabilize the region if we hadn't already destabilized it by invading it. The only difference between us and them is in which direction we are trying to destabilize it towards. So what are you saying, if they are indeed interfering? Should we invade them and attack them, too? Can we even afford that? Should we institute a national draft to call up the manpower for that? Your suggestions are raising a lot more questions than they are answering. ;)

[Snickers]

I tend to trust the military more, simply because the people who are making these charges have a political agenda agianst the military. Do you really think Friendly fire incidents like some of these are War crimes? Lets go back in time for a little bit here. During World War II, our bombers leveled cities killing hundreds of thousands of civlians. Is that a War crime to you?

I think with the whole insurgent thing and the iraqis, youve got wrong. The Iraqi people are not the ones fighting us. They are trying to root out the Insurgents as well. Most of the Insurgents we find have documents of mainly Iran and Syria. We have even captured Iranian Military officers who are working with the insurgency. I do know there are a couple Iraqis out there who are with the Insurgency, there will always be those people, but the Majority is agianst them. Most of the tribal leaders have been turning them in. Our invasion did not "destabilize" the region. Iran is making it destabilized. They are the one frakin threatening to wipe isreal off the map with nukes and thats whats creating such an oproar couse they have alot of those countries frightened. And they wont do anything stupid if we are right next door. Ever notice how all our enemys want Obama to win? I wonder why.... maybe because he will give them victory and us Defeat? You liberals are so corrupt... I know this all sounds kind of random not in order... Just got alot going through my mind...


As a little update with the War in Iraq. Many of you may remember how Congress has 18 Benchmarks Iraq had to make? and a year ago they only had 8 finished. Today they have 15 Completed, one of the 3 remaining is an Oil Law of some sort, which will be passed by the Iraqi Government within the next few days. Another Benchmark was diarming the Militias there like the Mahadi Army. Congress wants it to be in writting as a Law that they were disarmed. But a Law hasnt been written for it, but whats going on on the ground is much different then on paper. The Iraqi Army has been disarming the militias. All these militias are actually working with our troops and the Iraqi Government for peaceful relations and to get Iraq on the move agian. Also the Sunni's are coming back into line with the Iraq Government for unity.Also violence in Iraq has been drastically reduced. I actually saw on Fox news about other news networks over the past several months they have cut down on any coverage of the Iraq war by 90% just because there wasnt anything bad going on. So this is a major victory for the U.S. and Iraq. I know you liberals are hating this news... But its true... So after all your whining and complaining about how we "failed" is all useless because we are succeeding. Just think in about 10-20 years, many of you will look back and say "man why was I so agianst that? Why did I talk trash about the military? Why was I so Naive?" You will ask yourself this because in the long run, the war will be a success and our mission completed and you will realize what a Noble Cause it was that we did and maybe someday youll actually be proud of your country for what it does.

[The Arbiter]

Also, so what if Iran and Syria are training terrorists?

Dumbass.

[Snickers]

That means they are training the people who want to KILL YOU! You liberals dont understand that Iran wants the anyone who is allied with Isreal to die. They want anyone who isnt a Muslim to Die. And they are sponsoring those agianst freedom.

[Zagato]

Also, so what if Iran and Syria are training terrorists? They wouldn't be doing such a thing to destabilize the region if we hadn't already destabilized it by invading it.

Just because this sort of thing has been done many many times in history, doesn't mean it's okay for them to have a crack at it too.

What is happening now is a deep deep hole and there's almost nothing left to do. The United States and its allies has to pretty much stay in Iraq as long as possible until Iraq is strong enough to run itself. But even though, the insurgency will not stop. Which means the Coalition may have to build more bases there and stay for good, only to raise more violence. It's a big mess, this is. But this isn't like Vietnam, the Coalition cannot pull out or things get worse. True, the US shouldn't have gone into Vietnam, like how the US shouldn't have gone into Iraq. But it's happened, you cannot undo the past. In my opinion, the Coalition will never leave Iraq. But what can you do?

[Hubb]

You're confident in the military investigating itself? Are you crazy? "Hmm, did we commit a war crime? Let us think about that for a second: How about No!" I'm glad to hear that you trust a military investigation more than your own interpretation of the facts, that establishes the type of mindset I'm debating with here! If you don't even believe in your own opinions whenever they happen to clash with what the American military says, why am I even trying to convince you of anything?

Um, how do you know I trust a military investigation more than I trust my own interpretation of the facts? We don't know each other. We've seldom debated. No disrespect intended, but we don't know each other. At least take me out for drinks first. ;)

Just what are you trying to say then about the Haditha Incident? Liberals made it up? The soldiers who testified against their comrades fabricated everything? Actually, I should mention that we've all gotten our facts confused and the Haditha Massacre was the time that Marines attacked civilians at an intersection. The incident I had originally mentioned involving the rape of a 14 year old girl and the massacre of her entire family, was a different incident; regardless, both illustrate the point that we aren't just doing good things over there.

Did I say Liberals made it up? I don't recall saying that. Oh wait, some of the biggest "players" in reporting the "facts" were Salon, Vanity Fair, and the Los Angeles Times. :rolleyes:

I also don't recall saying that any military force consists solely of shining knights that come down from on high to rescue those in misery. You know what? It absolutely sucks this happened to those people and their families, and I wish it hadn't happened. Neither of us are over there, and we weren't on the ground when it happened. Truthfully, neither of us are able to accurately assess the information and events.

You aren't very clear about the distinction between "the why and the how," which you seem to think is of crucial importance. Who cares how they kill them? IEDs, beheadings, firing squads, torture, sniping; outside of the varying levels of unpleasantness, "the how" is completely incidental. "The why" is the only thing that can bring a stop to it or help us find a solution, so it matters infinitely more than "the how."

Think about this: If you are a Marine stationed in Iraq, and you are attempting to take proactive measures to ensure your face isn't taken off by a roadside bomb, you aren't worried about why someone wants to kill you in the field, you are simply worried about how they will do it, and how you'll prevent them from doing it. It all depends on the context, and when the event (e.g. the roadside bomb) will occur as to whether or not we worry more about the "why" than the "how." Context, dude.



Also, when you say "terrorists," you need to be a helluva lot more specific. Who get's training from the Iranians and Hezbullah? The Mahdi Army? The Saddam Loyalists? The Sunni Insurgency? The Shia Death Squads? The Iraqi government forces? You've oversimplafied your argument to the point that I can't even tell who you're talking about anymore: All of the sides are killing innocent civilians, so you need to be more specific. Clearly, just calling anyone who kills civilians "a terrorist" doesn't cover all of the relevant distinctions, so stop being so reductive.

The main destabilzing factor in Iraq at this time is the support Shia militias receive from Iran and Syria. The Jaish al Mahdi received logistic support and funding from Iran. Their IED's were found to have Iranian components. In a nutshell, all Shia terrorists are backed in some way by Iran and/or their proxies. That less reductive for you?

Also, so what if Iran and Syria are training terrorists?

Are you serious?

They wouldn't be doing such a thing to destabilize the region if we hadn't already destabilized it by invading it.

Wow. So it's our fault? That's pure sophistry.

Syria, for years, "destabilized" Lebanon through support of their puppet government.

Iran has attempted to destabilize the region before, and after, the Iran/Iraq war. You make it sound like all of these nations were just great friends before the evil United States came in. Spare me.

The only difference between us and them is in which direction we are trying to destabilize it towards.

Pray tell. How are we trying to "destabilize it towards?" Towards what?

So what are you saying, if they are indeed interfering? Should we invade them and attack them, too? Can we even afford that?

I never said that, did I?


Should we institute a national draft to call up the manpower for that? Your suggestions are raising a lot more questions than they are answering. ;)

We'll never have to institute another national draft. Typical liberal scare tactic.

Hope that answered your questions. But somehow I doubt it. :p

[Snickers]

Ill add onto this Institution of the Draft. The U.S. will not have to enact a draft for this war. There are still tens of thousands of people enlisting into the military weekly. Some join for the benifits, others out of duty, some because they need a way out of bad homelife. People join the military for all sorts of reasons and with what the military has to offer nowadays, its even more attractive. If you decide to join the military you go to this wonderful places called M.E.P.S. And they drill it into your brain everything about the contract, your medical, legal etc. (if you lie about anything on your record you can get charged with Fradualent Enlistment, and with that you receive a Dishonorable Discharge, a $10,000 fine and 2 years of Prison.) so many people do not lie about that stuff. But anyways back onto topic about the Draft, The people actually talking about instituting the Draft are your very own Demorcratic Senate and Congress. While the Republican side has repeatedly denounced it. Heres the mindset of the Democratic Leaders: "It wont affect us, we are above the rest" this is called Elitism. So stuff like this doesnt mean much to them. Watch the news and really listen to the candidates. Dont go by what the liberals indoctrinate you with, actually do your own research from websites who arnt affiliated with ABC, CNN, CNBC etc, they will distort the facts. I actually heard a story abouta female solider in Iraq who had to guard an ABC interview person, and as a company of Soldiers walked by them the reported asked them all 1 question, "who will you vote for in the election (Obama or McCain)? out of the 87 interviewed 84 said McCain and 3 Said Obama. But when ABC actually aired this report on TV they only showed the 3 who said Obama. What they want to do is try making the military look like they are shifting to Obama, so people think "o the military is supporting Obama so hes the one we should vote for!" The Liberal Media changes facts to support their Agenda. Open your eyes to whats really going on liberals, they are indoctrinating you with false information so you will vote for them. The military does career courses to help train you for your career as you promote and the military is actually preparing itself for if Obama becomes president. The military knows he will work on destroying it, hes been agianst America his whole life. You know how he "was" muslim? Well in the muslim culture they have this thing (forgot the term for it) but Muslims will change into their enemy, they will completly denounce the muslim religion and adapt the culture of the enemy so the enemy will not know. The goal of these infiltrators is to gain power within the enemy and then have them submitt to their original country. Could Obama be one of the people, no idea. But its something to consider, also note his Father was in the Sudanese Army before a Christian faction split from them which in return made ahuge civil war in Sudan. I think the background of each candidate is very important because that is how they are raised, thats where they learned their values from. And watching what Obama is affiliated with strikes me as profane. Like his pastor who hates american and this guy was a "mentor" to Obama for 20 years. So hes been indoctrinated with this stuff to. Hes also friends with that guy who bombed some building killing several people. Which there was a picture of that guy stomping on an american flag. Hes affiliated with all these anti american people, Dont you liberals see hes agianst this country? The evidence is right in front of your eyes but you refuse to accept it. Why? Start thinking and not believe everything some liberal tells you. They have a Communist anti American Agenda to reach and they will do whatever it takes to do it.

[Zagato]

The military does career courses to help train you for your career as you promote and the military is actually preparing itself for if Obama becomes president. The military knows he will work on destroying it, hes been agianst America his whole life. You know how he "was" muslim? Well in the muslim culture they have this thing (forgot the term for it) but Muslims will change into their enemy, they will completly denounce the muslim religion and adapt the culture of the enemy so the enemy will not know. The goal of these infiltrators is to gain power within the enemy and then have them submitt to their original country. Could Obama be one of the people, no idea. But its something to consider, also note his Father was in the Sudanese Army before a Christian faction split from them which in return made ahuge civil war in Sudan. I think the background of each candidate is very important because that is how they are raised, thats where they learned their values from. And watching what Obama is affiliated with strikes me as profane. Like his pastor who hates american and this guy was a "mentor" to Obama for 20 years. So hes been indoctrinated with this stuff to. Hes also friends with that guy who bombed some building killing several people. Which there was a picture of that guy stomping on an american flag. Hes affiliated with all these anti american people, Dont you liberals see hes agianst this country? The evidence is right in front of your eyes but you refuse to accept it. Why? Start thinking and not believe everything some liberal tells you. They have a Communist anti American Agenda to reach and they will do whatever it takes to do it.
You should write novel with this stuff. It would make a great crime fiction. :detective:

Communism? Anti American Agenda? Please.

[bigdaddychacha]

Many of you may remember how Congress has 18 Benchmarks Iraq had to make? and a year ago they only had 8 finished. Today they have 15 Completed, one of the 3 remaining is an Oil Law of some sort, which will be passed by the Iraqi Government within the next few days. Another Benchmark was diarming the Militias there like the Mahadi Army. Congress
So what? After they pass the remaining three benchmarks, does that me they are a full-fledged country capable of defeating the insurgents and terrorists alone and that we are free to go and can stop losing American soldiers over there? No? Then it doesn't really matter, does it.

I tend to trust the military more, simply because the people who are making these charges have a political agenda agianst the military. Do you really think Friendly fire incidents like some of these are War crimes?
Both sides have an agenda; doesn't mean that one of them isn't right. Do you honestly believe that the military doesn't have an agenda when some of their members are accused of committing war crimes in a time when there is a dire shortage of soldiers to go around?
Also, I didn't think we were talking about friendly fire. The death of Pat Tillman was friendly fire. The Haditha Massacre was not friendly fire, it was an attack on civilians.

Lets go back in time for a little bit here. During World War II, our bombers leveled cities killing hundreds of thousands of civlians. Is that a War crime to you?
Comparing the War on Terror to WWII is completely disengenuous. You're comparing a war with American deaths below four thousand to a war with American deaths above fifteen million. Also, Robert McNamera (sp) and John F. Kennedy both have raised questions about whether massively bombing civilian populations in Germany and Japan during WWII might actually have been a war crime. But I never personally said that and it has nothing to do with the discussion of Iraq, so let it go.

Our invasion did not "destabilize" the region. Iran is making it destabilized. They are the one frakin threatening to wipe isreal off the map with nukes and thats whats creating such an oproar couse they have alot of those countries frightened. And they wont do anything stupid if we are right next door.
Our invasion caused massive levels of refugees who flee into neighboring countries, and that absolutely, certifiably IS causing instability. Iran may be supporting people who have been fighting us already and encouraging them and arming them, but they were already fighting us; Iran didn't cause this. Don't pretend that the Iraq War was going along just fine until those pesky Iranians started butting in where they didn't belong and messed the whole thing up.

Ever notice how all our enemys want Obama to win? I wonder why.... maybe because he will give them victory and us Defeat? You liberals are so corrupt...
Where is your evidence for this? I wanna see a direct qoute from Osama bin Laden saying "Obama 'o8" or I have no reason to believe you. On the other hand, almost all of America's remaining allies in the world, while maintaining a stance of neutrality, visibly await a change of leadership from Bush to, preferably, a non-Republican leader. If the neocons have convinced you that if a Democrat ever wins the Presidency, then the terrorists have triumphed, then you are clearly too brainwashed to have a rational discussion.

Just think in about 10-20 years, many of you will look back and say "man why was I so agianst that? Why did I talk trash about the military? Why was I so Naive?" You will ask yourself this because in the long run, the war will be a success and our mission completed and you will realize what a Noble Cause it was that we did and maybe someday youll actually be proud of your country for what it does.
I sincerely doubt your vision of the future here. Even in the best case scenario, post-war Iraq will never look anything like post-war Germany or post-war Japan; deep down in your heart, you know this is true, also. They're still gonna be wearing hijab, still gonna be outlawing alcohol, still going to be treating men and women differently, still going to be hanging homosexuals, still going to be stoning women who have affairs or happen to want to marry someone who is not a Sunni/Shia/Kurd just like them...And that's a best-case scenario, even if the fighting stopped tomorrow! Iraq may eventually become a decent place, but I doubt very seriously that it will be as a direct result of Bush's decision to invade in 2003.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdaddychacha
Also, so what if Iran and Syria are training terrorists?

Dumbass.
You can selectively quote me in your profile to make me look unpatriotic for everyone on the avelegio forums to see and cuss me out without any explanation, but that's not what this debate is about, and it isn't going to bring any positive dividends to ORRPLE. If you aren't mature enough to have an OOC discussion about RL politics without attempting to damage my good name everywhere you post here in the offsite forums that chiefly concern an IC game, then maybe you need to just stay out of the Real World forums and stick to IC threads. Regardless, I've already chosen one of your "pearls of wisdom" to grace my own signature until whenever you realize the error of your ways.

What is happening now is a deep deep hole and there's almost nothing left to do. The United States and its allies has to pretty much stay in Iraq (Vietnam) as long as possible until Iraq (Vietnam) is strong enough to run itself. But even though, the insurgency (Viet Cong) will not stop. Which means the Coalition may have to build more bases there and stay for good, only to raise more violence. It's a big mess, this is. But this isn't like Vietnam, the Coalition cannot pull out or things get worse (Saigon will fall). True, the US shouldn't have gone into Vietnam, like how the US shouldn't have gone into Iraq.
Fixed. Also, I've highlighted in blue the one part of your statment that doesn't seem to mesh with the rest of what you're saying. Everything else you've said is pretty much interchangeable between Iraq and Vietnam, as I've demonstrated.

Um, how do you know I trust a military investigation more than I trust my own interpretation of the facts? We don't know each other. We've seldom debated. No disrespect intended, but we don't know each other. At least take me out for drinks first.
If you honestly want the answer to that, you merely have to look back at the quote that my statment was responding to. It doesn't matter whether we know each other or not. I was responding to what you said, not who you are. Also, sorry, but I don't go out for drinks with Republicans anymore! It never ends well for them. ;)

Did I say Liberals made it up? I don't recall saying that. Oh wait, some of the biggest "players" in reporting the "facts" were Salon, Vanity Fair, and the Los Angeles Times.
Stop making vague insinuations and start saying what you mean. Are you admitting that the Haditha Massacre did happen, or are you actually trying to insinuate that it was only a fiction created by Salon, Vanity Fair, and the LA Times (none of which I read, by the way.)

Think about this: If you are a Marine stationed in Iraq, and you are attempting to take proactive measures to ensure your face isn't taken off by a roadside bomb, you aren't worried about why someone wants to kill you in the field, you are simply worried about how they will do it, and how you'll prevent them from doing it. It all depends on the context, and when the event (e.g. the roadside bomb) will occur as to whether or not we worry more about the "why" than the "how." Context, dude.

What does this exercise in hypothetical soldier-dom have to do with your argument, anyways? That's what I've never been able to figure out from your statments...

Quote:
Also, so what if Iran and Syria are training terrorists?

Are you serious?

It's rhettorical, ass. You need to quote the next part for it to carry the meaning I intended, and not the meaning that you and The Arbitor desperately wish that I was using it in.

The main destabilzing factor in Iraq at this time is the support Shia militias receive from Iran and Syria. The Jaish al Mahdi received logistic support and funding from Iran. Their IED's were found to have Iranian components. In a nutshell, all Shia terrorists are backed in some way by Iran and/or their proxies. That less reductive for you?
And there are members of Shia militias and the Mahdi army within the actual government forces of the Iraqi army. So how are we ever going to stabilize Iraq if our enemies have successfully completely infiltrated the very groups that we claim to be working to defend? In addition to the Sunni Insurgencies and Al Qaida in Iraq, the waters are still uncomfortably muddied. Also, if your "nutshell" is correct, you still haven't said what we should do about it: do we invade Iran for interfering? With what army, and with what money?

Syria, for years, "destabilized" Lebanon through support of their puppet government.

Iran has attempted to destabilize the region before, and after, the Iran/Iraq war. You make it sound like all of these nations were just great friends before the evil United States came in. Spare me.
USA and Israel have also destabilized Lebanon. Again, so what?
I never made it sound like Iran, Iraq, Israel, Lebanon, etc, etc, etc were ever good friends, you're extrapolating that from something that I never said. What I'm saying is that before America invaded Iraq, there were hundreds of thousands fewer dead people and millions fewer refugees flooding across regional borders causing, yes, more instability than before the war, whether or not Iran was doing minor things to destabilize the region at that point or not. If you want to compare the current level of regional instability to the level during the Iran/Iraq War during the 1980s (which we also played a role in), you can, but that doesn't have anything to do with the point I was making.

Pray tell. How are we trying to "destabilize it towards?" Towards what?

We are trying to destabilize it to be more friendly towards secular Westernized Democracy; Iran is trying to destabilize it to be more friendly towards Iranian Shia interests. Neither one is necessarily the natural course of foreign relations for majority-Shia Iraq after having been at war with Iran in the 1980s and having absolutely no recent history of Democratic leadership or predilection towards Western institutions.

I never said that, did I?
You're saying Iran is sending troops, weapons, and trainers into Iraq to kill American boys. Do you have a suggestion for what we should do about that, or were you just stating it? There may be no Iraqi solution if the problem has essentially become an Iranian one. So you're saying we shouldn't declare war on Iran? I'm just trying to understand what exactly you're saying we should do. Complaining about a problem doesn't do any good unless you also suggest a viable solution.

Ill add onto this Institution of the Draft. The U.S. will not have to enact a draft for this war. There are still tens of thousands of people enlisting into the military weekly. Some join for the benifits, others out of duty, some because they need a way out of bad homelife. People join the military for all sorts of reasons and with what the military has to offer nowadays, its even more attractive. If you decide to join the military you go to this wonderful places called M.E.P.S. And they drill it into your brain everything about the contract, your medical, legal etc. (if you lie about anything on your record you can get charged with Fradualent Enlistment, and with that you receive a Dishonorable Discharge, a $10,000 fine and 2 years of Prison.) so many people do not lie about that stuff. But anyways back onto topic about the Draft, The people actually talking about instituting the Draft are your very own Demorcratic Senate and Congress. While the Republican side has repeatedly denounced it. Heres the mindset of the Democratic Leaders: "It wont affect us, we are above the rest" this is called Elitism. So stuff like this doesnt mean much to them. Watch the news and really listen to the candidates. Dont go by what the liberals indoctrinate you with, actually do your own research from websites who arnt affiliated with ABC, CNN, CNBC etc, they will distort the facts. I actually heard a story abouta female solider in Iraq who had to guard an ABC interview person, and as a company of Soldiers walked by them the reported asked them all 1 question, "who will you vote for in the election (Obama or McCain)? out of the 87 interviewed 84 said McCain and 3 Said Obama. But when ABC actually aired this report on TV they only showed the 3 who said Obama. What they want to do is try making the military look like they are shifting to Obama, so people think "o the military is supporting Obama so hes the one we should vote for!" The Liberal Media changes facts to support their Agenda. Open your eyes to whats really going on liberals, they are indoctrinating you with false information so you will vote for them. The military does career courses to help train you for your career as you promote and the military is actually preparing itself for if Obama becomes president. The military knows he will work on destroying it, hes been agianst America his whole life. You know how he "was" muslim? Well in the muslim culture they have this thing (forgot the term for it) but Muslims will change into their enemy, they will completly denounce the muslim religion and adapt the culture of the enemy so the enemy will not know. The goal of these infiltrators is to gain power within the enemy and then have them submitt to their original country. Could Obama be one of the people, no idea. But its something to consider, also note his Father was in the Sudanese Army before a Christian faction split from them which in return made ahuge civil war in Sudan. I think the background of each candidate is very important because that is how they are raised, thats where they learned their values from. And watching what Obama is affiliated with strikes me as profane. Like his pastor who hates american and this guy was a "mentor" to Obama for 20 years. So hes been indoctrinated with this stuff to. Hes also friends with that guy who bombed some building killing several people. Which there was a picture of that guy stomping on an american flag. Hes affiliated with all these anti american people, Dont you liberals see hes agianst this country? The evidence is right in front of your eyes but you refuse to accept it. Why? Start thinking and not believe everything some liberal tells you. They have a Communist anti American Agenda to reach and they will do whatever it takes to do it.

TL;DR
You need to seperate this out into individual sentences and coherent paragraphs, each addressing a seperate one of the numerous points you are trying to make, if you expect me to read it or try to address your arguments at all. Try again.

In brief retort to your most obvious central themes, I'll say this: Obama was never a Muslim, Muslims don't try to infiltrate a society and deny their religion all in order to wreak terror later, do you even know any Muslims personally? If military vocational skills usually translated into a good job after discharge, I think we'd be aware of that as a trend in our society. Most of the Vets I know came back to America without a college education having been entrusted with automatic weapons, armored personnel carriers, helicopters, cruise missiles, etc. over there only to find that America considers them barely qualified to hold down a minimum wage job back home; sad, but in numerous cases I've seen it to be true. It's not how I would have things, but joining the military is hardly the "best-career-move-ever" you seem to think it was. Also, in regards to the draft, how can the Democrats be "elite" if they would consider reinstituting the draft when right now our "all-volunteer" army is largely made up of the lower and lower-middle classes? If America is serious about a war, holding a draft is the only fair way to make sure that the rich also do some fighting! There were massive problems with the draft during the Vietnam War, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a more egalitarian way of making sure that everyone, and not just the poor, have to share the burden of a national war. Let me put it this way: if China declared war on us tomorrow, do you really still believe that "We'll never have to institute another national draft. Typical liberal scare tactic," as Hubb said before?

[The Arbiter]

There's nothing wrong with what you put in your signature. I still stand by that statement.

[Villalba]

THIS ELECTION ON CONFUZZLINNNNNNNNNN

Is not confusing at all, you either vote for a bucket of piss, or a bag of s**t. The confusing part is, which candidate is which.

[Hubb]

It doesn't matter whether we know each other or not. I was responding to what you said, not who you are.

You said, earlier in this thread that "If you don't even believe in your own opinions whenever they happen to clash with what the American military says, why am I even trying to convince you of anything?"

The way I interpreted this statement was that you were responding specifically, to me. If "I" don't believe in my own opinions and why are you, meaning YOU, trying to convince "me" of anything.

You can't respond to "what" I said when I have said nothing contradictory about my own opinions.

Stop making vague insinuations and start saying what you mean. Are you admitting that the Haditha Massacre did happen, or are you actually trying to insinuate that it was only a fiction created by Salon, Vanity Fair, and the LA Times (none of which I read, by the way.)

Nah, I don't think I will. Read between the lines of what I said. Do I believe something terrible happened? Yes. Do I believe it happened the way those three "news" sources said it happened? No.

It's rhettorical, ass.

I thought we were going to have this debate without ad hominem. Read the early posts in the thread, when I tried to have a debate with a 15 year old ass wipe. He stopped posting facts, and started insulting, so I responded in kind. Should I have? Probably not, but one person can only take so much stereotyping from another person before they lose their temper.

I have insulted you in no way, and will not. I thought our conversation was intended to be polite.

Complaining about a problem doesn't do any good unless you also suggest a viable solution.

Viable to whom? Liberals, or Conservatives? Viable solutions are subjective. I'm not asking you for a viable solution because it would be based on your political/philosophical leanings, which I probably wouldn't agree with based on your previous statements. Suggesting a viable solution would be an exercise in rhetoric at best, on this stage.

You can selectively quote me in your profile to make me look unpatriotic for everyone on the avelegio forums to see and cuss me out without any explanation, but that's not what this debate is about, and it isn't going to bring any positive dividends to ORRPLE. If you aren't mature enough to have an OOC discussion about RL politics without attempting to damage my good name everywhere you post here in the offsite forums that chiefly concern an IC game, then maybe you need to just stay out of the Real World forums and stick to IC threads. Regardless, I've already chosen one of your "pearls of wisdom" to grace my own signature until whenever you realize the error of your ways.


Well, I know this isn't directed at me, but I have a real problem with you taking something OOC and attempting to "transfer" your disagreement to absolutely any facet of this game. I would have a HUGE problem with any Legion member disrespecting a member of the ODN on their forum, or in their embassy....IF the discussion was IC. However, this discussion is NOT IC, it's OOC. So, maybe you should reconsider your veiled threat of problems between Legion and ODN because someone calls you a dumbass. Huh, kinda like the time you called me an "ass," but I don't recall making any threats against you or our ODN brothers and sisters.

By the way, I don't think your unpatriotic at all. Mindless devotion to the state isn't patriotism, either. Holding up a flag at a parade, or wearing a lapel pin doesn't make you any more, or less, of a patriot than someone protesting a government/military action. I know your comment about someone's opinion of patriotism wasn't directed at me, either, but I just wanted to share that last bit of opinion.

Have a safe weekend.

[Zagato]

Fixed. Also, I've highlighted in blue the one part of your statment that doesn't seem to mesh with the rest of what you're saying. Everything else you've said is pretty much interchangeable between Iraq and Vietnam, as I've demonstrated.

Difference is, I supported the North Vietnamese.
The reason I said it won't be like Vietnam is because of the outcome. I was happy when Saigon was captured and Vietnam was united.
The outcome would be very different in Iraq. If there is a new kind of domino theory, Iraq would be first.

[Snickers]

When I said our enemies want Obama to win did not mean just Osama Bin Laden, but also Iran, Syria and several other Arabic nations. If you were Iran and you had all these sanctions on you because of your nuclear weapons programs, who would you vote for? Since the Republicans have been a whole lot stricter on Iran, while Obama wants to ease up on them and pretty much let them go. Who would you want to win? Listen to what your candidate says, even though he really doesnt say how hes going to "change" things. Do you not take Iran serious when the blatenly say they will wipe Isreal off the map? Do you not support Isreal? The U.S. is a major supporter of Isreal same with much of the U.N. except france they harbored one of Isreals enemies and had a funeral for him and everything... You liberals like to think that everything would be just perfect if we hadnt gone into Iraq. But the reality is we did go into Iraq. You cant change that. The reason why we went doesnt matter anymore, that was 5 years ago. THE MISSION HAS CHANGED. Now we are there to HELP the people of Iraq. One thing that really bothered me was your statement:

"They're still gonna be wearing hijab, still gonna be outlawing alcohol, still going to be treating men and women differently, still going to be hanging homosexuals, still going to be stoning women who have affairs or happen to want to marry someone who is not a Sunni/Shia/Kurd just like them...And that's a best-case scenario, even if the fighting stopped tomorrow! Iraq may eventually become a decent place, but I doubt very seriously that it will be as a direct result of Bush's decision to invade in 2003." -sorry I dont know who to do the whole quote thing-

Do you realize that its their culture to wear the hijab? Its their religion that doesnt allow them to drink alcohol? Did you know its their religion agian that the women serves the man? The Man is the head of the household over there. Their Culture is completly different then ours and we arnt trying to change that. We do however want them to have good opurtunities, to choose their leaders, so the People have a say just like we do here. We are just changing the Government not the culture. They have Freedom of Religion, the whole country isnt just muslim based. Since we have been there, the Christian churches there have actually grown because there is no government like Saddam making Christianity Illegal. The iraqis have the choice of their religion, now their families might oppose some of it but thats a family matter not a national one. Just like you, you probaly disagree with your parents on different beliefs on things. Its normal, its our nature to disagree, we all have different opinions about things.

You said something asking "Do you know any muslims?" and my Answer is yes of course I do. I have muslim nieghbors, some of my fellow soldiers are muslim(and yes there are muslims in the military and they get treated just like everyone else). We may disagree on our religious beliefs and thats an understanding we have. Its the Extremist muslims who alter the meaning of the Koran to fit their own agenda. Those are the ones we are agianst, not just America but even the Muslim Community is agianst them.

One Vive I get from you is that you dont really like the military. You said they can barely hold a minimum wage job. The military trains them in skills used for war and to maintain equipment. The Civilian world does not use military equipment obviously, but being trained as for ex: a Computer Technician. In the military they could be operating and fixing some of the fanciest computers in the world. While in the civilian world, theyd just be fixing your Dell Computer. But the knowledge/training the military gives them can set them up for a good career path. Its to help them get started, not to already have them set perfectly for the civilian world. Its up to the veteran if he is continue what he did for the military into the civilian world or not. Alot of people lose interest in their military specialty so theyd rather not continue it as a career. Its up to the individual if he takesadvantage of his oppurtunities or not. I do know that many of the big companies like to hire Infantry Soldiers for managment positions because they have the leadership, theyve been trained in high stress situations and know how to manage people in those situations. Usually these people are Military Officers since they do have a degree. The military has alot of smart individuals, I know quite a few Enlisted people who have Masters Degrees in buisness, math and several others. Everyone in the military has some sort of education wether it be a GED, High school Diploma or a Masters Degree. The military isnt for everyone, its a very different lifestyle, much more rugged. You dont always get your fluffy pillow at night, or see your family everyday. Its a sacrifice we have to make and when we signed that contract we knew what we were getting into. Somone who has never been in the military or isnt married or related to somone in it wont understand the sacrifice of being gone for very long periods of time. You make the military sound like they are all failures in life. They are real people just like yourself trying to make a living and get through life. They just have a different plan then most people would want. They know what they are doing and they do their jobs to the best of their ability. So give them the respect they deserve.

[bigdaddychacha]

Well, I know this isn't directed at me, but I have a real problem with you taking something OOC and attempting to "transfer" your disagreement to absolutely any facet of this game. I would have a HUGE problem with any Legion member disrespecting a member of the ODN on their forum, or in their embassy....IF the discussion was IC. However, this discussion is NOT IC, it's OOC.
First off, I have a problem with people who blur the lines of OOC an IC, too, and I'll tell you right now, I'm not the one who is doing it! The Arbiter is because, whether this thread is OOC or IC, he posted a rhettorical statment I made without the follow-up (ie-out of context) in his signature, a place where it is guaranteed to be seen by everyone in these forums wherever he posts, including BOTH IC and OOC areas of the forum! People who have never even met me will start saying, "Jeez, did that Big Daddy Cha-Cha really say he supports Iran? I don't even know the guy, but I dislike him already!" Don't pretend that I'm the one who took this OOC debate IC, it was The Arbiter who did that first.

So, maybe you should reconsider your veiled threat of problems between Legion and ODN because someone calls you a dumbass.
Second, I'm not making a threat that a hotheaded Legion member keeping an out-of-context quote of the ODN diplomat in his signature will cause problems for ORRPLE, I'm stating a fact.

I come here to talk to you all about politics and things in the spam area because one of my duties as diplomat is to spam with you all and get to know you on something more than an IC level. If you have members who cannot have a mature debate about politics without resorting to calling a guest a "dumbass," that reflects badly on you and it makes my job of being cordial with your member-body that much more difficult, all because two people happen to have different opinions. I'm used to having debates with all types of people, but one prerequisite for debate is that it needs to remain respectful. We can disagree, but openly flamming me, if I understand your registration agreement correctly, is a warnable forum violation in addition to being completely disrespectful and immature action.

With regard to the out-of-context signature quote, that is also disrespectful and, as I've said, although this started as an OOC discussion of politics, could very easily have IC consequences for me when I try to do the serious IC business of working between our two alliances.

So don't chastise me about OOC/IC blurring, put your own house in order first. I'm not the one who initially crossed that line.

Huh, kinda like the time you called me an "ass," but I don't recall making any threats against you or our ODN brothers and sisters.
Hubb, I'm sorry I called you an "ass," it was flippent, but if you have such a problem with obscenity, why not call out The Arbiter who was the first one to resort to using derogatory language in this round of the debate against me? He started it and you were both saying the same thing (although, granted, he was the one who used the word "dumbass" so I should have been more specific in my response to him and not towards you, but I was responding to about 17 seperate charges by your side of the argument so I'm sorry some things got misdirected.

One Vive I get from you is that you dont really like the military.
Not true, speculation.

You said they can barely hold a minimum wage job.
In my experience, this is true. My boss who had just come back from two tours in Afghanistan and Iraq had NUMEROUS problems with several of the other workers there (not me) but a bunch of older ladies and people who were constantly trying to get him fired because they had an antagonistic relationship with each other. It wasn't all their fault, though, but it wasn't all his fault, either, but he was hardly a "natural leader" after his time in the military. Like I said, I got along with him just fine and we were friends, but that doesn't mean that he did a great job in his post-military career. One other glaring example was my old roommate (again, I'm still good friends with the guy) who spent time in Afghanistan. We're good friends and I like him as a person, but there's no way to sugarcoat this: the guy could NOT hold down a job! He probably had like 4 or 5 different jobs during the year when I lived with him while I managed to stay at one the whole time. At one point, he told his manager at a Best Buy to "f*** off." for absolutely no good reason and was then extremely surprised when that resulted in his termination. I told him that was stupid and that he needed to be more thoughtful at his next job, but aside from making a judgement call in situations like the ones I've mentioned above, how am I a person who "doesn't really like the military? Personally, I think it's a shame when they have trouble in their work lives after they've finished doing the hard work of serving the military, while acknowledging that this isn't a universal occurance.

Everyone in the military has some sort of education wether it be a GED, High school Diploma or a Masters Degree. The military isnt for everyone, its a very different lifestyle, much more rugged. You dont always get your fluffy pillow at night, or see your family everyday. Its a sacrifice we have to make and when we signed that contract we knew what we were getting into. Somone who has never been in the military or isnt married or related to somone in it wont understand the sacrifice of being gone for very long periods of time. You make the military sound like they are all failures in life. They are real people just like yourself trying to make a living and get through life. They just have a different plan then most people would want. They know what they are doing and they do their jobs to the best of their ability. So give them the respect they deserve.
Trust me, I understand and respect the difficulty of being distanced from your family for a long period of time and not having the comforts of America with you everyday: I've been living in South Korea for going on 12 months now; I have 4 more to go and then I'll probably sign up for another year right after that. I haven't so much as seen a family member's face over skype in that time and over here your bathroom IS your shower and "Western-style" toilets are a bit of a luxury. Not that that's the same as military life, but use the tired old line that no one could possibly relate to our brave heroes unless they happen to be one or be related to one. I know several of them and I'm living in a situation now that is similar in a lot of respects except for the danger. Also, I know plenty of Army guys over here in Seoul. We go to the same bars and sometimes run in the same crowds. Nice try painting me as some elitist military hater, but the paintjob just doesn't stick!

When I said our enemies want Obama to win did not mean just Osama Bin Laden, but also Iran, Syria and several other Arabic nations. If you were Iran and you had all these sanctions on you because of your nuclear weapons programs, who would you vote for?
Last time I checked, Iranians don't have a vote in any American election. Also, I'm not just going to vote for the Republicans every time from now on because some perceived enemies in this country or that country might prefer that I vote for the other guys who are still a part of our government. You make it sound like Ahmedinejad (sp) is running here for the American Presidency and I'm about to hand America over to Iran on a silver platter!

Do you not take Iran serious when the blatenly say they will wipe Isreal off the map?
Iran doesn't have the technology to "wipe Israel off the map," so even if they claim it, no, I don't take it seriously as anything more than local Iranian political rhetoric. Whether or not they are developing nuclear energy for the purpose of weapons or as an energy source, they will never match the American/Israeli nuclear arsenal, so it doesn't matter; unless an entire country happens to have a death wish, they aren't going to wipe Israel off the map.

Do you not support Isreal?
Actually, I don't. Their human rights record is terrible and they're sitting on land that they have no modern claim to. As long as they are not serious about making peace with the Palestinians, the entire Middle East continues to have a great excuse not to get their collective act together. If Israel were not being held up by American military and economic aid, anti-American sentiment across the Arab world would be A LOT harder to justify.

The U.S. is a major supporter of Isreal same with much of the U.N. except france they harbored one of Isreals enemies and had a funeral for him and everything...
The UN has passed several resolutions condemning Israeli policy. It's a two-sided issue, not just everyone in the whole world vs. France and Palestine.

You liberals like to think that everything would be just perfect if we hadnt gone into Iraq. But the reality is we did go into Iraq.
I never said things would be perfect. Granted, the American economy would be a heckuva lot better, over 4,000 Americans would still be alive, Bush might still have some credibility at home and abroad, etc. etc. etc. Things wouldn't be perfect, but in almost every respect, they would be better.

You cant change that. The reason why we went doesnt matter anymore, that was 5 years ago.
Republicans love to say that the reason doesn't matter because it lets them get away with the initial incorrect action and then start the discussion getting a free pass from the start and starting over in the reality that they are responsible for creating, but it does matter. If you start a war and later discover that it was for the wrong reason and blatant lies, then you might just need to eventually say "my bad" and end it. What if the Japanese, realizing that a "Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere" was slipping from their grasp and that it was a criminal idea to begin with, had just surrendered and avoided all of the island-hopping with Americans and ultimately the nuking? When you can no longer achieve the goals you set out for and it turns out that your leaders knowingly lied to start the fight, you might as well save both nations involved a lot of heartache and call it a day.

THE MISSION HAS CHANGED.
Of course the mission has changed! The old mission(s) were based on a pack of lies!
WMDs? Lie.
Welcomed like liberators? Lie.
Iraq will pay for itself? Lie.
After Saddam dies, the "dead-enders" will realize it's over and participate in the democracy? Lie.
Now they're saying we've always been doing it to help the poor, down-trodden Iraqi people...after we've killed several hundred thousand of them, how much water does that carry?

Do you realize that its their culture to wear the hijab? Its their religion that doesnt allow them to drink alcohol? Did you know its their religion agian that the women serves the man? The Man is the head of the household over there.
A strict interpretation of their religion requires hijab, virgin martinis, and male dominance of everything. I still haven't heard you laud the cultural relativism of cruel-and-unusual public-executions of homosexuals, adulterers, and mixed-ethnicity-daters, but I look forward to it! ;)

Their Culture is completly different then ours and we arnt trying to change that. We do however want them to have good opurtunities, to choose their leaders, so the People have a say just like we do here. We are just changing the Government not the culture. They have Freedom of Religion, the whole country isnt just muslim based.
Um, you have to change the culture in order to change the politics. When we occupied Japan, we had to convince the Japanese people that their Emporer wasn't god before we could go about the business of making Mitsubishi build cars instead of Zero bombers. When we occupied Germany, we had to drag German citizens through the freshly-liberated death camps in order to convince them that there were better national pursuits than killing Jews. Also, the German concept of a holy motherland that was on a march to greatness was nullified when the country was split in half. All of these changes were CULTURAL changes that we had to institute so that any kind of political progress could be brought about. Today, Germany and Japan are completely modernized countries in just about every respect imaginable and this was achieved through cultural changes as well as political. I'm sorry to say it, but Iraq can't keep stoning women to death in public if they ever want to be a country with international respect and that will have tourist visits from people from their friendly liberating country within the next 50-70 years.

Viable to whom? Liberals, or Conservatives? Viable solutions are subjective. I'm not asking you for a viable solution because it would be based on your political/philosophical leanings, which I probably wouldn't agree with based on your previous statements. Suggesting a viable solution would be an exercise in rhetoric at best, on this stage.
If the only solution you feel comfortable putting forward is the conservative one, then I guess you'll have to say that one, and then I'll disagree, and then you'll respond; but I agree, all of this should be done politely. But you don't need to avoid the topic because we will inevitably disagree; if that was the case, we might as well never have posted a single response to the OP about McCain and Vietnam!

Do I believe something terrible happened? Yes. Do I believe it happened the way those three "news" sources said it happened? No.
Well, insinuation still isn't enough. Tell me specifically where you think they got the reporting factually wrong?

-----------------------------

Anyways, I've got to get going, I'm going out to meet coworkers at a club or I'd write more. Happy 4th of July everyone, especially those of you back in America where you can celebrate it!

[Zagato]

First off, I have a problem with people who blur the lines of OOC an IC, too, and I'll tell you right now, I'm not the one who is doing it! The Arbiter is because, whether this thread is OOC or IC, he posted a rhettorical statment I made without the follow-up (ie-out of context) in his signature, a place where it is guaranteed to be seen by everyone in these forums wherever he posts, including BOTH IC and OOC areas of the forum! People who have never even met me will start saying, "Jeez, did that Big Daddy Cha-Cha really say he supports Iran? I don't even know the guy, but I dislike him already!" Don't pretend that I'm the one who took this OOC debate IC, it was The Arbiter who did that first.

Indeed. I wonder why The Arbiter has not yet been called out for this.
That Leninrules guy got into serious heat for immature acts and insults.

And bigdaddychacha, remove his quote from your signature. This will help your case.

[The Arbiter]

Indeed. I wonder why The Arbiter has not yet been called out for this.
That Leninrules guy got into serious heat for immature acts and insults.

And bigdaddychacha, remove his quote from your signature. This will help your case.
I haven't insulted him. I simply quoted one of his incredibly stupid statements into my signature.

[Zagato]

I haven't insulted him. I simply quoted one of his incredibly stupid statements into my signature.
You called him a 'dumbass' which is exactly what I would identify as an immature insult.

Now as for the quoting, I wouldn't mind if you'd quote my "I supported North Vietnamese" bit for example, because I didn't add anything else to contradict that statement. But as you clearly quoted only a portion of bigdaddychacha's point he was trying to make, just shows me that you are stretching the truth. Which is an example of assholery, as seen with Leninrules.
I have seen a lot of targeting 'words we don't like' in this argument from both sides. And I disapprove of such a thing because as seen earlier, it leads to misunderstandings of what they were trying to get across.
But your word targeting is the worst I've seen so far here. Sure, Leninrules-guy did similar things with insults, but you went as far as to stick it in your signature to 'broadcast' missinformation. I've been to many forums in the past few years, and your actions have been one of the most immature I've come across.

I hope that you don't do it again. I also hope this will be the last time I bring this up because this thread is already as offtopic as it is.

[The Arbiter]

Sorry princess.

[DarkNoble]

It's late now too.... :D


I'm not saying it's funny or even that it was right to do that to him. However, the probability that the Kerry business was some deep dark Republican conspiracy isn't nearly as great as this unfounded attack on McCain could be a Democrat conspiracy. Which seems more likely - that a dozen American veterans would get a nudge from Bush campaign staffers to call into question Senator Kerry's military record or that a single Vietnamese ex-POW camp torturer would get some cash, some recognition, and some plausible public ass-covering for calling McCain an outright liar? Why not come forward years ago? Why not during McCain's last presidential bid? Why only now, when he has a damn decent chance of being the next President? That's what I want to know.

I'm sure Bush would have come up with something back in the 2000 Rep Primaries if the love child story had not worked in Carolina.

Bush is the best smear President ever, he won an election in 2004 because of the smear tactics he used against Kerry. He was already very unpopular but his campaign made people vote for him because they made Kerry look so bad. It was a brilliant bit of political work.

I hate the way they all run their campaigns, but the sad truth is that negative politics works better than positive. That's way bad news sell more than good news too.

[James Davis]

:blink:

What the hell is this?! First of all, this has gotten dramatically off topic and should have been locked a long time ago. Second, I find the flaming in here to be absolutely pathetic. This is an OOC thread. It's meant to be fun.

Ok, for a bit of commentary:

To the right-wingers: Just stop. You're making your views look horrible. There is no difference between Korea and Vietnam? Well, um let's see, they're both in Asia and both were proxy wars between the US and communism, but that's about it.

The MSM is nothing more than a liberal organization working day and night to bring down Republicans? Funny how that Reverend Wright stuff got past the filters....

Liberal democrats=communists? I'm not sure whether to laugh or actually take the time discredit this statement...oh what the hell. Democrats today believe in heavy government regulation in the private sector, and back the redistribution of wealth. They are fully in favor of private property, commuists aren't. Democrats are also in favor of personal liberties, totalitarian communists (which you were referring to) have a completely opposite view. The Soviet government basically told their citizens when they could work, when they could sleep, when they could eat, and when they could piss. Your assertion was waaay off.

I could go on and on, those examples were pulled from pages 3 and 4.

Ok, left wingers, it's your turn.

You weren't quite as bad, but lets see what we have here.

Kerry unfairly smeared? He was a compulsive flip-flopper, and please don't act like the attacks are all from Republicans on to Democrats. It's called politics, smears are at the center of them.

Comparing your adversaries to Nazis. Nice. Really mature. That's pretty much along the lines of the right calling you communists, except worse. You're accusing you're opponents of being racist, some Republicans are, but so are some Democrats, and the political leanings are extremely divergent as well. The worst part about this, however, is the use of a tragic event in history to smear (yes I said it) your opponents to make them seem somehow unsympathetic and/or culpable in what happened.

Grouping all conservatives as unintelligent hicks. Again, you're trying to apply a damaging label to all the people who oppose you. You know damn well that not all Republicans, or even a significant portion of them are represented by what has been said in this thread.

Both sides: The language, personal attacks, and just overall disrespect is nauseating. Seriously, cut it out. There have been a few exceptions, namely, Linco, Bigdaddy, and Ross, but I think the offenders know who they are. Oh, and both sides need to do some serious researching before they start throwing "facts" around again.

I'm not going to involve myself in this thread anymore, unless I need to clarify and/or defend myself. Just wanted to let you all know how immature you're acting, and how stupid it looks.

/rant

-JD

Also, I'm a registered Republican, just thought everyone should know that before you start wildly speculating what my motives are.

[leninrocks244]

Yeah, I knew you were just a dirty mouth little kid. Wait until you're older, and have more responsibility. Wait until you have to work for what you have, instead of having your mommy and daddy get it for you. You've had no experience on which to base your theories of what life should be like.

You've got a lot of growing up to do, kid. Wait untill you have to deal with real life, then come back and tell me if you are still able to uphold your high and mighty ideals.

Tell your mom I said Hi.


What's there that I need to experience? All I need is to compare and contrast the world today and different political ideologies. To me, Democratic Socialism seems to be fair and free.

[leninrocks244]

So you're saying it's better for Iraqi civilians to be nerve-gassed than to be massacred in droves by the insurgency? That's real nice of you. And that defeatist attitude, "why fight for our freedom when Achmed the Dead Terrorist is just going to blow himself up in a mall anyways" is the way liberals give political aid to our enemies.

I don't think any of us here suggest that liberals or the Democratic party is in actual collusion with terrorists, that would be wrong to assert; however, by publicly doubting our chances of winning and by publicly spewing hateful comments towards our own troops you give aid and comfort to the enemy. Intentional or not, that's a little thing we call 'treason.'

It doesn't really matter, because right now they're going to die no matter what. Our "assistance" is killing them faster and if we leave they'll still die. The Iraqi people lose either way. Lol.... Jeff Dunham. But anyways, I was asking how this is going to help our freedoms not why we should fight for our freedoms. Completely different question.

And the last time I checked, speaking out against your government is called free speech. Giving government secrets to other countries is treason.

[leninrocks244]

God damn, this thread got out of hand.

[bigdaddychacha]

Indeed. I wonder why The Arbiter has not yet been called out for this.
That Leninrules guy got into serious heat for immature acts and insults.

And bigdaddychacha, remove his quote from your signature. This will help your case.

Done. I expect to see some changes in his signature, as well, though!